From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: discoverability, better defaults and which-key in Emacs Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 16:43:41 +0200 Message-ID: <941e2791-bb35-4de6-b7a7-e3dce4938a1d@gutov.dev> References: <874jetaxri.fsf@jeremybryant.net> <87le84oqbd.fsf@yahoo.com> <87plxdpsxw.fsf@posteo.net> <87r0hridvr.fsf@posteo.net> <5dd3d04c-c0eb-43fe-b7c2-957f80261ea3@gutov.dev> <87eddqiw84.fsf@posteo.net> <32071337-c91d-46ad-bb9b-10b8d0c83965@gutov.dev> <86h6ikzc38.fsf@gnu.org> <1056a72d-af5c-487e-be33-67522fe47d17@gutov.dev> <87r0hnohgv.fsf@gmail.com> <86a5obxwy9.fsf@gnu.org> <61ffccc8-56c0-4b14-9420-2d0fd9cac216@gutov.dev> <86r0hnw1l1.fsf@gnu.org> <86o7crvza4.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="37890"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cc: visuweshm@gmail.com, justin@burkett.cc, philipk@posteo.net, luangruo@yahoo.com, jb@jeremybryant.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Feb 08 15:44:34 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rY5dh-0009e8-DO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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Thu, 8 Feb 2024 09:43:42 -0500 (EST) Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <86o7crvza4.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=64.147.123.21; envelope-from=dmitry@gutov.dev; helo=wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -26 X-Spam_score: -2.7 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_SBL_A=0.1 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:316037 Archived-At: On 08/02/2024 15:52, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 15:36:43 +0200 >> Cc:visuweshm@gmail.com,justin@burkett.cc,philipk@posteo.net, >> luangruo@yahoo.com,jb@jeremybryant.net,emacs-devel@gnu.org >> From: Dmitry Gutov >> >>> How frequently do people rebind F1? IME, never. >> Sure, likewise with C-h. > No, C-h is different. At least in the past some people wanted it to > do the same as Backspace (we even have a special mode for that > contingency). But F1 was a relatively late addition to Emacs, from > when people were accustomed to have it invoke some help function, and > no application I'm aware of has it bound to something else, unlike > some other Fn keys. So I'm quite surprised to hear your "sure" above. > Did you actually see that in the wild? I have seen neither exactly, but as a data point I can say that sometime until 2014 company-mode used as a binding in company-active-map. Not in a prefix map (so this is not an exact match), but still in a way that prevents help commands such as ' v' from working. Later we added 'C-h' for the same binding (because " is extremely touch-typing unfriendly"), but as I'm looking at it now, the binding is still there. >>> Most people will never rebind C-h. Those who do could rebind it to a >>> character that cannot be used in this situation because it is already >>> bound in various prefix maps. Having two alternatives there increases >>> the probability that one of them will work. >> If we consider the situations where C-h or f1 is rebound, having >> misleading text in the message (with bindings that don't work) should >> concern us as well. Even if one of the suggestions is likely to work >> anyway (while the other doesn't). > If you can come up with a code that detects at run time that help-key > and/or F1 was rebound to a key that will not invoke > describe-prefix-bindings, such a key should indeed better be removed > from the message. But can we reliably do that? If we cannot, having > two keys there instead of one is better. I think we should be able to, but since help-key doesn't call any command directly through a map or fallback binding of some sort (instead it's dispatched ad-hoc), the solution I have tried so far (also using substitute-command-keys) did not help.