From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Bozhidar Batsov" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Brand new clojure support in Emacs ;-) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 17:09:03 +0200 Message-ID: <93acf4ed-dba2-46ed-b71e-9458a492e929@app.fastmail.com> References: <87il9kksqz.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87a5uw9ivs.fsf@posteo.net> <87ttt42gna.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87wmy080kn.fsf@posteo.net> <83v8djcydl.fsf@gnu.org> <87350ndquw.fsf@dfreeman.email> <83350ncbns.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyzrjbd8.fsf@dfreeman.email> <83zg2vav46.fsf@gnu.org> <87o7j99304.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87zg2hsyrd.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87h6ontwfv.fsf@posteo.net> <87r0nlngmo.fsf@posteo.net> <87msy8vq6m.fsf@gmail.com> <87jztcrg49.fsf@posteo.net> <87jztc6w42.fsf@gmail.com> <871qfjso94.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f760a05a248c4d828b1c420ec50b9b52 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="7696"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.9.0-alpha0-701-g9b2f44d3ee-fm-20230823.001-g9b2f44d3 Cc: "Philip Kaludercic" , "Richard Stallman" , "Danny Freeman" , "Eli Zaretskii" , "Emacs Devel" , "Manuel Uberti" To: =?UTF-8?Q?K=C3=A9vin_Le_Gouguec?= , =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1vora?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 03 17:10:21 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qcok0-0001mw-Lu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 03 Sep 2023 17:10:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qcojb-0005LX-3N; Sun, 03 Sep 2023 11:09:55 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qcoja-0005LL-89 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 03 Sep 2023 11:09:54 -0400 Original-Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.26]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qcojX-0002N8-Qt; Sun, 03 Sep 2023 11:09:54 -0400 Original-Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96DBC5C00B5; Sun, 3 Sep 2023 11:09:49 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from imap43 ([10.202.2.93]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 03 Sep 2023 11:09:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=batsov.dev; h=cc :cc:content-type:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender :subject:subject:to:to; s=fm3; t=1693753789; x=1693840189; bh=oN Y4PJZZvsMcbsmPdmbevP6EyDsFCfRtqw4y/Q2AHxU=; b=qdt/oDjgvrx/Pw0rkZ Oafu1yuNDTJkvr4vf3yf8e02quXtiz+YurPjMDGZTivgyZ3O/E7WcZPhFqK08Gnu TMFbr6w7eJrqJETJHyqnFA7F1LsKx9EfWCQPo+OmBfEu2bzNILpwJOkuTOzerizo 1F0s79CmgoPf7G+E/CzJgvuciJ1PDGaPleTs7RI52Sagw0OAWYpmI7ezTxVRyFYL 5KnZC0SlGa1kAjBkfcI1RbwX7YYIpnYYmkxczTf4v7a1XyHYMxw/S/PEk+MQzU6f 2NiXk0tV0JgyoKvDJXBqagZ9rkHpUneLKLEXlD8DMVSI2fPbVFHqYyOyLwzoxRT7 jR1w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject :subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t=1693753789; x=1693840189; bh=oNY4PJZZvsMcb smPdmbevP6EyDsFCfRtqw4y/Q2AHxU=; b=jJvHbnrhAIE84e0+rsLDC8HwHCsz/ g+S5ksdkUYxqbIIJ3JLMXmCD+e9Hn1gc7xlKXjQkZv6bjXKp5skYLjDDSA5g7Hj9 gLXI5Cu2ede0hbWHuPG+fmHnnPfw11AZ5C8ZV9gfkLz2tQ5bV5jbs/Vb+dyIpmaR cbc76hucfHCTi0xId2LhExyJNFQifqaC+9x/XVV8QDDYXTdw02Lxv5Xy9msj2QrL NVWAAY05mxHHhtZcAAwqdyd6JAEDyyR/zAkSHaQPblTxHc3/7f2zbflDzfKrXw9a 3m+B9A2ZTbA2aXcuQzhUsTBNSVPkKAf1xjKE7qwmY2uIjbjKkRgJeQ7mQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedviedrudegiedgkeeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvfevufgtsegrtderreerreejnecuhfhrohhmpedfueho iihhihgurghruceurghtshhovhdfuceosghoiihhihgurghrsegsrghtshhovhdruggvvh eqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvedvtdfgveevveejveelfeeuhfejffeileeufeetteei jeekkeefjeeuveegueefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrg hilhhfrhhomhepsghoiihhihgurghrsegsrghtshhovhdruggvvh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i025946a9:Fastmail Original-Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 4ED422D4008F; Sun, 3 Sep 2023 11:09:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface In-Reply-To: <871qfjso94.fsf@gmail.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.26; envelope-from=bozhidar@batsov.dev; helo=out2-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:309983 Archived-At: --f760a05a248c4d828b1c420ec50b9b52 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your response is spot on IMO! We're all on the same side supposedly (building a better Emacs and a str= onger Emacs community), yet such discussions feel very hostile to me. An= d the Emacs maintainers claim that I'm being hostile to them. I can't se= e how the Emacs community will gain something useful out of such unpleas= ant exchanges. For me the net result so far is that I'd be less willing = to engage in work with Emacs's upstream, just because I don't like the t= one of the conversations here and the implied accusations that only the = Emacs team knows what's best for the Emacs users.=20 On Thu, Aug 31, 2023, at 8:46 AM, K=C3=A9vin Le Gouguec wrote: > Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora writes: >=20 > > Philip Kaludercic writes: > > > >>> Why? If the NonGNU people are "too cool for school" after having = been > >>> invited to GNU, why should the GNU project make even more special > >>> accomodations for them? Not up to me to decide anyway. > >> > >> Mainly because this will affect users, not the maintainer. =20 > >> [...] > >> Also, I don't see a reason to provoke the Clojure-mode maintainers.= I > >> disagree with their reasoning and fear they have been misinformed, = but > >> the best way to remedy situations like these is to be understanding= and > >> prove ourselves to be cooperative by example (IMO). > > > > You seem to be under the misguided impression that my proposal is me= ant > > to bother, provoke or help change the minds of the NonGNU Clojure > > maintainers? It's not. > > > > I simply think they shouldn't have a say in how the Emacs project > > answers Richard's original request of a Clojure editing mode in Emacs > > propoer. >=20 > IMHO that is disproportionately combative. Regardless of whether > clojure-mode maintainers contribute to core and/or GNU ELPA, they > contribute to Emacs's continued success by serving their users's needs > and keeping these users invested in Emacs. >=20 > I think they deserve the courtesy of not encroaching if alternatives c= an > be found; I second Philip's assessment above. >=20 > > As to naming, it's not my call, so let's have Richard chime in. > > clojure-mode, newclojure-mode, etc, I personally don't care, since I= 'm > > not a Clojure user. >=20 > My 2=C2=A2, as a passive observer, not a Clojure programmer either, wh= ose > only interests lie in (a) alienating as few people as possible (b) > getting dopamine hits from finding specks of consistency amidst chaos: >=20 > * "lisp-clojure-mode", following other "FAMILY-DIALECT-mode" examples > like "makefile-gmake-mode", >=20 > * no specific name (keep the name from the inherited mode, > lisp-data-mode in your example), just a mode-line hint, following > other "FAMILY[DIALECT]" examples like sh-script and > "Shell-script[bash]". >=20 >=20 --f760a05a248c4d828b1c420ec50b9b52 Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Your response i= s spot on IMO!

We're all on the same side s= upposedly (building a better Emacs and a stronger Emacs community), yet = such discussions feel very hostile to me. And the Emacs maintainers clai= m that I'm being hostile to them. I can't see how the Emacs community wi= ll gain something useful out of such unpleasant exchanges. For me the ne= t result so far is that I'd be less willing to engage in work with Emacs= 's upstream, just because I don't like the tone of the conversations her= e and the implied accusations that only the Emacs team knows what's best= for the Emacs users.

On Thu, Aug 31, 2023= , at 8:46 AM, K=C3=A9vin Le Gouguec wrote:
Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@gmail.com> writes:
=

> Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:
>
>>> Why?  If the NonGNU people are "too cool for = school" after having been
>>> invited to GNU, why= should the GNU project make even more special
>>>= ; accomodations for them?  Not up to me to decide anyway.
=
>>
>> Mainly because this will affect use= rs, not the maintainer.  
>> [...]
>> Also, I don't see a reason to provoke the Clojure-mode m= aintainers.  I
>> disagree with their reasoning= and fear they have been misinformed, but
>> the bes= t way to remedy situations like these is to be understanding and
>> prove ourselves to be cooperative by example (IMO).
<= /div>
>
> You seem to be under the misguided imp= ression that my proposal is meant
> to bother, provoke = or help change the minds of the NonGNU Clojure
> mainta= iners?  It's not.
>
> I simply th= ink they shouldn't have a say in how the Emacs project
>= ; answers Richard's original request of a Clojure editing mode in Emacs<= br>
> propoer.

IMHO that is di= sproportionately combative.  Regardless of whether
cl= ojure-mode maintainers contribute to core and/or GNU ELPA, they
contribute to Emacs's continued success by serving their users's n= eeds
and keeping these users invested in Emacs.
<= div>
I think they deserve the courtesy of not encroaching = if alternatives can
be found; I second Philip's assessment= above.

> As to naming, it's not my call= , so let's have Richard chime in.
> clojure-mode, newcl= ojure-mode, etc, I personally don't care, since I'm
> n= ot a Clojure user.

My 2=C2=A2, as a passive= observer, not a Clojure programmer either, whose
only int= erests lie in (a) alienating as few people as possible (b)
getting dopamine hits from finding specks of consistency amidst chaos:<= br>

* "lisp-clojure-mode", following other "FAM= ILY-DIALECT-mode" examples
  like "makefile-gmake-mod= e",

* no specific name (keep the name from = the inherited mode,
  lisp-data-mode in your example)= , just a mode-line hint, following
  other "FAMILY[DI= ALECT]" examples like sh-script and
  "Shell-script[b= ash]".



--f760a05a248c4d828b1c420ec50b9b52--