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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=aserp2120.oracle.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/20 18:35:20 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:251126 Archived-At: > >> Does this mean that no one learns to drive stick? Of course not. > >> Some people do so by choice -- they make a conscious investment, > >> made with the understanding that driving will be *harder* for a > >> while before there is any discernable payoff. But they are > >> willing to make that choice because others told them how it would > >> be worth it. It's not something the user would find out from > >> reading the manual for the car, though. > > > >The analogy is pretty good (not perfect). The last > >sentence doesn't correspond to Emacs, though, I think. > > > >You _can_ learn Emacs by reading its manuals and its > >help (`C-h'). Asking Emacs is a good way to learn. > >Maybe not as good as the expert-over-your-shoulder > >method you cited, but pretty good. >=20 > Ah, you seem to think I was saying "no one learns how to drive stick by > reading the manual". >=20 > But that's not what I was saying. I was saying that you don't find out > from the manual *why* driving stick might be worth it for you -- why it > might be worth the investment. Yes, I see now that you more likely meant that by "it". (It could have meant learning stick or learning that driving stick will ultimately pay off.) I'd say that many who end up being Emacs users (in the sense you intend) were _not_ convinced by others ahead of time as you suggest - though many others were, no doubt. And I'd say that some of those who weren't thus convinced have likely gotten their "Emacs user" bona fides at least partly thanks to the manuals and the help UI ("ask Emacs"). IOW, I agree with your characterization of most Emacs users (i.e., other than any drive-by tasters who don't stay). And I agree with your claim that having a mentor over the shoulder can be very helpful. And I agree with your guess that many who do stay become convinced to try it and stick with it because of a payoff promised from outside Emacs itself (manuals). I disagree, if you also claim that _only_ those with mentors, or those convinced by others to stick it out, end up as users. The point that users who stick around and really use Emacs are the prime target of its "user friendliness" is one I agree with. (Not the only target, but the main one.) And the things you say help create Emacs users do in fact help, and they can even sometimes be determinant. But it's not the case, IMO, that those things are required, to become an Emacs user (again, in your sense).