From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Chad Brown Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode (was: Put scroll-bar on right by defaulton UNIX.) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 01:03:12 -0700 Message-ID: <912E7DE8-145A-47DC-861F-92E73B9F9421@mit.edu> References: <20100318101223.GB2704@muc.de> <400FB8EA6FB8499AB34297A77E9DCB49@us.oracle.com> <20100318185435.GB1522@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-4-768300529 X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1268985835 31756 80.91.229.12 (19 Mar 2010 08:03:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 08:03:55 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Mar 19 09:03:51 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NsXBO-0006Np-T6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:03:51 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52590 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NsXBO-0003FA-BC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 04:03:50 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NsXAv-00033U-H0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 04:03:21 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=36454 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NsXAt-00032W-RD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 04:03:20 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NsXAs-0004yk-2Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 04:03:19 -0400 Original-Received: from dmz-mailsec-scanner-8.mit.edu ([18.7.68.37]:45234) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NsXAs-0004ya-01 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 04:03:18 -0400 X-AuditID: 12074425-b7d00ae000002295-08-4ba32fc5940c Original-Received: from mailhub-auth-2.mit.edu (MAILHUB-AUTH-2.MIT.EDU [18.7.62.36]) by dmz-mailsec-scanner-8.mit.edu (Symantec Brightmail Gateway) with SMTP id ED.58.08853.5CF23AB4; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 04:03:17 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH.MIT.EDU [18.7.22.103]) by mailhub-auth-2.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.9.2) with ESMTP id o2J83G87031600; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 04:03:16 -0400 Original-Received: from [10.0.1.6] (c-98-247-149-76.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [98.247.149.76]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as yandros@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.12.4) with ESMTP id o2J83DMG018295 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 19 Mar 2010 04:03:15 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <20100318185435.GB1522@muc.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAARNWkCI= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:122263 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail-4-768300529 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greetings! On Mar 18, 2010, at 11:54 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > You're being very dismissive of my experience simply because you're > different and don't share it. I am by no means unique - there will > certainly be lots of other people who suffer this feature likewise; > there're another one or two on this mailing list. The degree of > suffering d-s-m inflicts on us far outweighs the slight increase in > convenience for you. The degree of suffering `inflicted' on some undetermined number of users = probably does outweigh the convenience for one person, but if that's the = calculus you want to consider, the lack of d-s-m inflicts pain on a far, = far greater percentage of the potential user base than will ever feel = anxiety about mouse-based interfaces in an editing environment. > However, with simple transient-mark-mode, the problem doesn't exist. > Even a naive newbie would very quickly learn to hit the key = if > d-s-m weren't enabled. Heavens, they do it already. Do they complain > about it? Yes, they do -- they complain, and they also just stop using emacs, = because the anxiety that you complain about affects so vastly many more = of them. You've made it clear that you don't like = delete-selection-mode, and you don't like transient-mark-mode -- and for = you, it is great that emacs is an extensible, customizable editing = environment. The question is not, and has never been ``which mode is = better''. It is not, and has never been ``which mode will new users = expect''. The question is just this: do you want to change emacs' = default behavior out-of-the-box to try to match what new users expect, = or do you want to make the default configuration more comfortable for = advanced, experienced, long-term emacs devotees. This isn't an easy = question, but it's not going to be answered by arguing over which mode = is preferable for which audience, or which audience is `more right'. *Chad= --Apple-Mail-4-768300529 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
You're being very dismissive of my experience simply = because you're
different and don't share it.  I am by no means = unique - there will
certainly be lots of other people who suffer this = feature likewise;
there're another one or two on this mailing list. =  The degree of
suffering d-s-m inflicts on us far outweighs the = slight increase in
convenience for you.

The = degree of suffering `inflicted' on some undetermined number of users = probably does outweigh the convenience for one person, but if that's the = calculus you want to consider, the lack of d-s-m inflicts pain on a far, = far greater percentage of the potential user base than will ever feel = anxiety about mouse-based interfaces in an editing = environment.

However, = with simple transient-mark-mode, the problem doesn't exist.
Even a = naive newbie would very quickly learn to hit the <delete> key = if
d-s-m weren't enabled.  Heavens, they do it already.  Do = they complain
about it?

Yes, they do -- = they complain, and they also just stop using emacs, because the anxiety = that you complain about affects so vastly many more of them. =  You've made it clear that you don't like delete-selection-mode, = and you don't like transient-mark-mode -- and for you, it is great that = emacs is an extensible, customizable editing environment.  The = question is not, and has never been ``which mode is better''.  It = is not, and has never been ``which mode will new users expect''. =  The question is just this:  do you want to change emacs' = default behavior out-of-the-box to try to match what new users expect, = or do you want to make the default configuration more comfortable for = advanced, experienced, long-term emacs devotees.  This isn't an = easy question, but it's not going to be answered by arguing over which = mode is preferable for which audience, or which audience is `more = right'.

*Chad
= --Apple-Mail-4-768300529--