From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_Starb=E4ck?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs for new users Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 23:06:14 +0100 Message-ID: <912155b0911231406j47893a76p6e94e929f39fe8ae@mail.gmail.com> References: <912155b0911230837i48326730m82e0d54d4004be59@mail.gmail.com> <4p4rt6-2ne.ln1@lesharris.com> <485b0c380911231316o72b32465m4444dbadf59aca9e@mail.gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1259014322 27150 80.91.229.12 (23 Nov 2009 22:12:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:12:02 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Les Harris , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stephen Eilert Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 23 23:11:55 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1NCh8T-0001kE-Pj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 23:11:54 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58917 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NCh8T-0007h6-5c for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:11:53 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NCh37-0001yl-Qu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:06:21 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NCh32-0001sn-Dy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:06:21 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=46184 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NCh32-0001sg-6P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:06:16 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-fx0-f213.google.com ([209.85.220.213]:33402) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1NCh31-0005wC-NF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:06:15 -0500 Original-Received: by fxm5 with SMTP id 5so6739991fxm.8 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:06:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=5y39ie6QlCPylUkYCR9sQdrwwCfiGgNRleAy4Esy+rE=; b=szIG600CicewSahthq5A8o7NNmDJzUHqV81IYRxTnwavLb9ZWpLhQrsVH1rS3aeEMa ySkCtzhDAqVyMXKX5RaQrWphWICP/j8yKC8Q0zGZ/DkkXwDZmgrVYDnBuoLrIDpnGref 4XrhYqjJxmtZrO/0YmW6zg/OQBOzK3riwstYI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=M3JLKQPgCphN1kLaUF95eiRkfaJcy/tSGqECQkLPSXHQpuffQbS5G+BjA65W+j5Isq MUQ6ezhbJgfHNC5/j/XMrOM3Qi6P0i+fmvt6qHNxr2bwwaGG8DrYq8LOKovtIV1oGxAV Czp0Q9Ne+DL+G/JEAzyL5GJUexTGuF7EeUNS8= Original-Received: by 10.223.27.194 with SMTP id j2mr887959fac.76.1259013974773; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:06:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <485b0c380911231316o72b32465m4444dbadf59aca9e@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: b43fa994738ab0f5 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:117640 Archived-At: 2009/11/23 Stephen Eilert : > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 4:35 PM, Les Harris wrote: >> >> Lennart Borgman writes: >> >> > I think >> > we should have to move to adhere better to existing GUI standards (CUA >> > for example, but that is a hot potato). >> >> First let's get the tautologies out of the way: Emacs is a complex >> system with many features and extreme extensibility. >> >> With that axiom in mind I would argue that any attempt to add a veneer >> of simplicity over the top is doing a disservice to would-be emacs >> users. > > The extensibility part comes with need. As users become more familiar with > Emacs, they might want to extend it to improve their workflow. > > However, to reach that point, it is necessary that they become familiar with > it to begin with. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Emacs is "dumbed > down". Rather, the idea should be to make it easier for new users to > transfer their existing skills. Exactly. I don't think any of the suggestions I've had (or anyone else) is about dumbing down. It's changes I think are good anyway, but that might be especially good for beginners. And also I think it's worthwhile to think about beginners when deciding what the default should be for things that are easy to change. Beginners shouldn't need a special beginner friendly .emacs, but should be OK without one. As for CUA I just thought of something. What do you think about having s-x, s-c, s-v, s-z do the CUA thing in Emacs? Many people have keyboards with C-, s- and M- modifier keys. Maybe it would be acceptable for those used to these bindings that in Emacs you have to use another modifier key with "the normal stuff" since the usual "Alt key" is used by "special emacs commands"?