From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_Starb=E4ck?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Emacs for new users Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:37:14 +0100 Message-ID: <912155b0911230837i48326730m82e0d54d4004be59@mail.gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1258994260 20932 80.91.229.12 (23 Nov 2009 16:37:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:37:40 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 23 17:37:33 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1NCbup-00071l-Jq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:37:27 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42882 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NCbup-0001k9-37 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:37:27 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NCbui-0001hg-K7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:37:20 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NCbue-0001fY-7D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:37:20 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=38817 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NCbue-0001fV-1p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:37:16 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-fx0-f213.google.com ([209.85.220.213]:45209) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1NCbud-0007aH-L5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:37:15 -0500 Original-Received: by fxm5 with SMTP id 5so6376384fxm.8 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 08:37:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=ChNjNk3o1lgGZ8A3rYCXMi1ucoJeSnGhnKqXxCG9Oss=; b=PLg13hazl70beszwauUhEMFhc7sI6kkc4dAvu2+y8YPfTefxqso5ppefgrUHiBNJjJ UPEBcDqS9KYZmBEdumF28o6SM4ZZOK3Fo6IsEtiAWDSirFqmSekE64ztQUZMDk1nQsLm vvAhQDHmufVUgn0jfdkWjehoRkx+XQXPI1gec= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; b=lv5/gB1Kkb7foq68P2eBjMlCvpQ1IM9y+UlpCw94i0I8GoD8VN4whBAmNuKiE64Ji5 4CJUa7oyVCtxMG4Zn7NfDMXvlMzzsI5N73CKNu9fI7xVolzGXVvhfIDq0mv4KZYOS07G ju7apn+En6AobEEWG13OBvxXRZAP4gPqPJc54= Original-Received: by 10.223.4.214 with SMTP id 22mr759960fas.34.1258994234455; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 08:37:14 -0800 (PST) X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3c0963976a556ade X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:117593 Archived-At: I wrote: > But I prefer if they don't have to, since they have lots of other stuff to learn as > well. Every good step is a good step, even the small ones. I should add that I love all the care that has been taken in making Emacs 23 even more accessible for new users than Emacs 22 was. I'm teaching an intro course where we use Emacs among other things, and I think if was a big change to do this with Emacs 23 this year. Kudos to all involved! Maybe I should ask my students about what they have found particularly confusing. Some things I've noticed off the top of my head: * beeping is often disturbing and unexpected, in particular for scrolling past the beginning or end of the buffer with the scroll wheel. (I agree. That's hardly an error.) * the frame/window terminology (of course) * I have a hard time getting them to use *one* emacs instead of starting several when they are editing several files. One reason is they want them in different frames. Probably find-file-other-frame should be in the menus. * "M-" (for a short while) * They are interrupting things by doing stuff with the mouse. Like clicking somewhere in the middle of a query-replace. I want Emacs to be seen as the best choice for anyone wanting to use an editor, not just knowledgeable hackers. I would have loved it if the effort in writing gedit had been spent in improving Emacs for new users instead for example, so that Emacs would be the default Gnome editor, and it disturbs me that many GNU/Linux distributions don't include Emacs by default. I think most agree with me in this, but that some instead see Emacs as "not for everyone"?