From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Daniel Colascione Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What improvements would be truly useful? Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 09:01:18 -0800 Message-ID: <90f9d9e8-36a5-5896-59e1-cd4d1180e24a@dancol.org> References: <87inaiss6l.fsf@web.de> <6FCF6ACA-4F29-4B6B-BE9D-D7130C6E9495@gnu.org> <87fu5moe4c.fsf@web.de> <877eqyocro.fsf@web.de> <83zi3uz4nb.fsf@gnu.org> <0b1dd3fa-e0b0-ed20-a256-dd92d1c1826f@dancol.org> <8bc3c4c7-dfc7-987a-95e7-bd309e2326c6@cs.ucla.edu> <03118DC0-39DA-4AB5-980E-A33809B9A5EE@raeburn.org> <86578165-1b41-e75c-7180-84d8edefc44b@grinta.net> <83o9k2s4xw.fsf@gnu.org> <65dafef7-3e1f-ba67-6717-c369033533a3@grinta.net> <831sgxrvsq.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1520355804 2475 195.159.176.226 (6 Mar 2018 17:03:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 17:03:24 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii , Daniele Nicolodi Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Mar 06 18:03:19 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1etFze-00081O-Qc for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 18:03:15 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57044 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1etG1h-0002OQ-88 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 12:05:21 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45267) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1etFxy-0000MT-Tk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 12:01:32 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1etFxv-0004h7-23 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 12:01:31 -0500 Original-Received: from dancol.org ([2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fedf:adf3]:59510) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1etFxu-0004gf-N0; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 12:01:26 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dancol.org; s=x; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject; bh=b80XoGeFN73PTI6NLfmUOBv0QtZq30tEHc7oJeXfmiU=; b=alwYKZbsmHd1Kj9NaPlGC4CzxhoYTP8PlwsseVRPmYhX1pswpmXKiBNqu/7FNFydPs6eMlHcN+23VVThxlv/ATP77CMWnmSiiPjg32ZsOotaVO1CbLDjoynsJSM+j1kUGi00P9moYmDDiwU/VxedNfUyyr0brkoCfHtuhkbAjhUo1ihudot4alf/IBmgpQRGENJGwZi1VBPQei7YVePgybUidQdMuTCg79KOliCDUcdJenYf9mhELhlDKJC7OLslMu7xC6320TIXCPcjFpWWc81s9/xh0XPP/4G/AOQN6NPaxDqjHH5tmkGiR/K7mJtr2yjsC/ZCwyPPnQYecDcohg==; Original-Received: from [172.92.145.124] (helo=[192.168.86.27]) by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1etFxs-0003ji-H2; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 09:01:24 -0800 In-Reply-To: <831sgxrvsq.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Language: en-US X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fedf:adf3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:223345 Archived-At: On 03/06/2018 08:52 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Daniele Nicolodi >> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 23:32:28 -0700 >> >> I'm far from being familiar with the Emacs codebase thus I may be >> reporting something that it is not completely true, however: Emacs was >> born as a console only application, the graphical user interface seems >> to be duct taped on. > > I object to the "duct taped" derogation, and invite you to study the > relevant code before you form your opinions. Besides, Emacs still > supports text-mode terminals, and moreover, supports text-mode and GUI > frames in the same session (a very important feature), so some degree > of compatibility to a console is still a requirement. > >> Also, GTK support seems a bit of an hack that >> requires layering violations (reaching down to the X primitives) to >> work. Being GTK the only modern toolkit supported on Linux (as far as I >> know) and the only way to get nartive Wayland support, some radical >> cleanup in that area would probably be a good thing. > > It's true that GTK support was added in a not very clean way, but I > don't think we can throw away support for the other toolkits just yet, > because they are still being used. Eli is right. The current approach is fine, however it got there. Eventually, we'll have to support Wayland, but I disagree that "radical cleanups" will necessarily be needed. As I wrote a while ago, the right way forward is a pure GTK+ (as opposed to a mixed X11/GTK+) back-end, letting GTK+ handle running on Wayland, and this kind of window system could be most accommodated in the existing model. It'll end up looking a lot like the NS port. More radical, I think, would be multiple-window-system support. For that, more abstraction in the frame rendering will be required.