From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Gregory Heytings Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Suggested experimental test Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 23:46:42 +0000 Message-ID: <9088e12cb36020430ea2@heytings.org> References: <831ba60af0cbfdd95686@heytings.org> <87mtuxj8ue.fsf@gnus.org> <9088e12cb3169cdcdbc4@heytings.org> <9088e12cb3a70cbf66aa@heytings.org> <9088e12cb381e11e6d32@heytings.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="19622"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Alfred M. Szmidt" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Mar 22 00:47:40 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lO7nI-00052S-5X for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 22 Mar 2021 00:47:40 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58272 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lO7nH-0006eK-6m for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 21 Mar 2021 19:47:39 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34900) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lO7mR-0006Dk-J2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Mar 2021 19:46:47 -0400 Original-Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:39866) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lO7mP-0006kW-Q1; Sun, 21 Mar 2021 19:46:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1616370403; bh=Blr0k52hfbEiKsaJdzNQH9aibInKhzfjF/aa6Z+wBh8=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=G9uF+AXgHz2hEEOxTuxckiTHXYKHatizzHPXVURt/XHH2SlXmm7/T3DVH/o1OI4IS qCNVZCJPxQ2RBs2+i0TcN6+iizz1Cy7qO8qLnKFYgu9O0+hfxQFRQ8v19cAmGtson6 UepHhHYNAUbbaD841HINfgdKIgUQhtRdSvtM30gVhipb8GIbDaFJsyrtEmoiciYZf7 /K9bVBbwu7njYhxgzYiZTjqTS/wwxLu9GRhcv67TKnA8R5cy72UTemVczhD59APOPj hq64467/WuRLkZe8I9+fvB0rhznBZLhG8qzHt+oJUPt2WYT/q+kCiPSKtXRnpTs5oD yZsQFOHNq4Nfw== In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=95.142.160.155; envelope-from=gregory@heytings.org; helo=heytings.org X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:266730 Archived-At: >>> It isn't a small change to remove a feature completely. When asked to >>> keep _a_ binding, it has been meet with silence and it has been more >>> important to inconvinence users than to listen to them, so I can only >>> assume that this will a similar case for C-o. >> >> Your assumption is wrong. > > Neither center-line nor center-paragraph have been given an alternative > binding. The same is also applicable for facemenu. Despite requests for > it. > This is another topic, unrelated to the current one, and as I said earlier I'm currently experimenting ways to readd these commands. I do this thinking specifically of you. >> Please have a look at the proposed experiment: it moves open-line to >> repeated C-o. > > A proposal is not reality, and such a behaviour would be yet again > beyond annoying. How about doing polls first instead of doing this > blind experiments > What kind of poll would you like to see? What would you consider to be a significant enough fraction of Emacs users? How would you poll them? There has been a survey a few months ago, and in spite of the fact that there were more than 7000 replies, many complained that the results were not representative. Moreover, polling with abstract questions is not a good way to discuss UI changes. The point of conducting experiments on the trunk is that users concretely experiment potential changes. > > where it will be far to late when these changes sneak into Emacs for > them to be changed back. > Fortunately, such changes are easy to revert for users who would dislike them, and the way to revert them is documented in the NEWS file. As I said, there have been many changes even to the C-LETTER and M-LETTER keys in the past, when it was thought that the key in question could be used in a better way. Another example, which I forgot in my previous list, is C-c, which was changed from exit-recursive-edit to a prefix key in Emacs 16, and exit-recursive-edit was moved to C-M-c.