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From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
To: Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com>
Cc: Wayne Harris <wharris1@protonmail.com>,
	Emacs developers <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
Subject: RE: Modernize frame-title-format: "%b - GNU Emacs"
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 09:35:36 -0700 (PDT)	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <8f1fe768-eafe-47b2-ad66-bfc29f895322@default> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAP_d_8WW3-VtTjvk1=GLKB6c89RYryo7Bp_dUTja5_3koJa_QA@mail.gmail.com>

> > Sure.  But see below (you quoted, but didn't address).
> > Even if someone agrees that the app name should be
> > present, should it really be leftmost?
> 
> Not leftmost but righmost, by convention and by your own argument that
> the most specific information should stay when the title is truncated.

Thanks; I misunderstood you.  I have no problem
with appending that (or anything else).  I thought
you were suggesting prepending, as if that were the
most important info to see.

> > And how often is the app name really helpful?
> 
> This is a trick question. You’re challenging the convention here,
> asking me to find an excuse to not follow it.

It wasn't meant as a trick question.

Where is this convention defined?  Is it a real
"thing" - some standard or something, or is it
just that you've noticed that many apps use such
naming?  I'm not challenging you; just curious
about this.

> > > > How common is the use of multiple applications
> > > > (in separate window-mgr windows) for the same
> > > > file or directory (or other argument)?
> >
> > ? How often, for the same file?  If you see only the
> > file or dir name, is it hard to know that the app is
> > Emacs?  Most of the time?
> 
> I might have a Dired for the root directory of an application project
> open in Emacs, and the actual application running in a second window.
> Both will have the same title in your proposed scheme.
> 
> I might be editing an HTML file in Emacs and previewing it in Firefox,
> and it might not have a <title> yet. You want me to look at titles and
> mentally say “This one is ‘index.html - Mozilla Firefox’, so that one
> ‘index.html’ must be Emacs”?

OK.  If I were in your shoes in that context I'd
configure my frame titles to fit such use cases.
I don't see that as important for the default
case.  But I may well be mistaken wrt how common
your case is.

> > I argued to put the more specific info first, i.e.,
> > leftmost.  The app name is less specific than the file
> > name etc.
> 
> The convention already does this.

Good.  So we're in agreement about the only thing
I've really argued for.

> > Imagine if every one of your browser windows had "Google
> > Chrome" or "Firefox" or "Internet Explorer" or "Brave"
> > as its leftmost text.  Imagine how useful/useless that
> > would be for picking a window out of a task-bar list,
> > a set of tabs, or any other list.  Imagine if every
> > mail-client window had the client name at the far left:
> > "Outlook" or whatever.
> 
> I don’t need to imagine it, I *remember* it.

(Me too.  And I still see it here and there.  And
I don't like it.)

> > What I see in the title bar for a Chrome or Brave or
> > Firefox or IE browser is this, from the left:
> >
> > 1. A site icon.  E.g. fancy "T" for New York Times site.
> > 2. A page title, possibly with a subtitle.  E.g.
> >    "Opinion | Kenosha Tells Us More About Where the Right
> >     Is Headed Than the R.N.C. Did".
> >
> > That means I can easily pick out that web page by its
> > app icon and page title.  Would you really prefer that
> > the frame title be something like this?
> >
> > "Google Chrome <NYT icon> Opinion | Kenosha Tells Us More
> > About Where the Right Is Headed Than the R.N.C. Did"
> >
> > Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you.  I hope so.
> 
> Yes you are. Ideally:
> <Chrome icon> Kenosha Tells Us More
> About Where the Right Is Headed Than the R.N.C. Did | Opinion – Google Chrome
> 
> possibly abbreviated to:
> <Chrome icon> Kenosha Tells…
> 
> (The web site icon totally does not belong in a browser title bar,
> because then a web site could impersonate a locally installed
> application, at least until the user activates the window and sees the
> address bar.)

We'll have to disagree about that last part, I guess.

> >> It’s a convention,
> 
> > Maybe some places, i.e., for some apps.  I don't see
> > it for most apps, including web browsers and mail
> > client, on MS Windows.  (And you did mention "Windows.)
> 
> I do not know which browsers and mail clients you use but Firefox and
> Thunderbird do append “- Mozilla Firefox” and “- Thunderbird” to every
> title, at least for me on GNU/Linux, and I remember it being that way
> back when I was using Windows.

On Windows I don't see it in Firefox, Google Chrome,
IE, or Brave (chromium).

But I guess I'm not really seeing a frame (wm window)
title.  As those browsers all use tabs, it's the tab
title I guess I've been talking about, for a browser.
I don't see a separate window title.  And googling
for that suggests that you need to fiddle or use an
add-on to implement or fake a window title.  (Is that
correct?  It's my impression, so far.)

Interestingly, for Chrome, I see this when I mouseover
a tab:

 "The New York Times - Breaking News, World News &
 Multimedia"

 followed by the site URL: "nytimes.com"

Similarly, for other sites.  IOW, the (closest
equivalent I can find to a) window title includes
lots of info: page title plus the site URL.

(I don't see the site URL for Brave or Firefox.)



  reply	other threads:[~2020-08-29 16:35 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 95+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-08-26 22:09 Modernize frame-title-format: "%b - GNU Emacs" Stefan Kangas
2020-08-26 22:37 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-08-26 23:12   ` Drew Adams
2020-08-27  5:28 ` Yuri Khan
2020-08-27  5:55   ` Stefan Kangas
2020-08-27  6:56     ` Yuri Khan
2020-08-27 14:52       ` Stefan Monnier
2020-08-27 15:04         ` tomas
2020-08-27 15:17           ` Stefan Monnier
2020-08-27 16:18       ` Stefan Kangas
2020-08-27 17:02         ` Yuri Khan
2020-08-27 17:28         ` Colin Baxter
2020-08-28  0:17       ` Wayne Harris via Emacs development discussions.
2020-08-28  4:44         ` Yuri Khan
2020-08-28  8:56           ` Ulrich Mueller
2020-08-28 19:03           ` Drew Adams
2020-08-28 19:55             ` Yuri Khan
2020-08-28 20:36               ` Drew Adams
2020-08-28 20:40                 ` Thibaut Verron
2020-08-28 21:18                   ` Drew Adams
2020-08-29  8:39                 ` Yuri Khan
2020-08-29 16:35                   ` Drew Adams [this message]
2020-08-29 17:01                     ` Thibaut Verron
2020-08-29 18:25                     ` Yuri Khan
2020-08-29 20:19                       ` Drew Adams
2020-08-27  6:32 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-08-27  7:20   ` Stefan Kangas
2020-08-27  8:00     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-08-27  8:03       ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-08-27 14:35       ` Colin Baxter
2020-08-27 14:59       ` Stefan Kangas
2020-08-27 15:39         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-08-28  1:04     ` James Cloos
2020-08-28  4:46       ` Yuri Khan
2020-08-28 19:09         ` Drew Adams
2020-08-28 19:22           ` Colin Baxter
2020-08-28 20:07             ` Drew Adams
2020-08-28  9:18       ` Stefan Kangas
2020-08-28 13:00         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-08-29 23:08         ` James Cloos
2020-08-28 19:29       ` Tassilo Horn
2020-08-27  6:52 ` tomas
2020-08-27  9:07 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-08-27  9:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-08-27 17:06   ` Pip Cet
2020-08-27 17:11     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-08-27 17:36       ` Robert Pluim
2020-08-27 18:08         ` Drew Adams
2020-08-27 17:27 ` Ulrich Mueller
2020-08-27 17:52   ` Drew Adams
2020-08-28 22:06 ` Drew Adams
2020-08-28 23:39   ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-08-29  1:20     ` Stefan Kangas
2020-08-30 23:59 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-08-31  7:58   ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-08-31 14:19   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-08-31 14:46     ` Stefan Kangas
2020-08-31 14:52       ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-08-31 15:17       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-08-31 15:48         ` Stefan Kangas
     [not found] <<CADwFkmnhA7TNqVpgG3jvPL+_33gYRwSK0z2ddvDpYXUu9qw-EQ@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found] ` <<E1kBBSl-0007bb-1K@fencepost.gnu.org>
     [not found]   ` <<CADwFkmmP_CwHk48=v2YQVG3ODMQsBjcqqnGU_8H-pMsw_4irrw@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]     ` <<E1kBCpo-0006ol-R1@fencepost.gnu.org>
     [not found]       ` <<E1kBCsX-00049o-5Z@fencepost.gnu.org>
2020-08-27 15:05         ` Drew Adams
     [not found]       ` <<CADwFkmn2mJ2Mns3qyLUa-uWjOEB6zpSB=x3M9nK8q5gidn6iPg@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]         ` <<E1kBJzg-0001FK-Eb@fencepost.gnu.org>
2020-08-27 15:51           ` Drew Adams
2020-08-27 15:59             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-08-27 16:42               ` Thibaut Verron
2020-08-27 17:23                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-08-27 17:50                   ` Thibaut Verron
2020-08-27 18:15                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-08-27 19:13                       ` Thibaut Verron
2020-08-27 19:20                         ` Yuri Khan
2020-08-27 17:49             ` Michael Albinus
2020-08-27 18:10               ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-08-27 18:19                 ` Michael Albinus
2020-08-27 18:10               ` Drew Adams
2020-08-27 18:22                 ` Michael Albinus
     [not found]             ` <<87a6yg9dyq.fsf@gmx.de>
     [not found]               ` <<E1kBMLt-00033R-SA@fencepost.gnu.org>
2020-08-27 18:14                 ` Drew Adams
2020-08-27 18:19                   ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-08-27 18:30                     ` Michael Albinus
     [not found]             ` <<<87a6yg9dyq.fsf@gmx.de>
     [not found]               ` <<<E1kBMLt-00033R-SA@fencepost.gnu.org>
     [not found]                 ` <<5f644f03-df12-4af0-8bd7-46152372df72@default>
     [not found]                   ` <<E1kBMUM-0003xd-MI@fencepost.gnu.org>
2020-08-27 18:34                     ` Drew Adams
2020-08-27 18:51                       ` Michael Albinus
2020-08-27 20:01                         ` Drew Adams
     [not found]     ` <<m3sgc7mvh8.fsf@carbon.jhcloos.org>
     [not found]       ` <<CADwFkmkOjpGh-=FKXkuX31Hcuzku3=QdHHXzRvtWs6gEkpAN1Q@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]         ` <<E1kBdzV-0006sF-Ha@fencepost.gnu.org>
2020-08-28 19:16           ` Drew Adams
2020-08-31  5:26             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-08-31  7:34               ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-01 18:23                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-08-31 12:02               ` Colin Baxter
     [not found] ` <<83y2m01me0.fsf@gnu.org>
2020-08-27 15:10   ` Drew Adams
2020-08-27 15:14     ` tomas
2020-08-27 15:24       ` Drew Adams
2020-08-27 16:00         ` tomas
     [not found] ` <<CADwFkmk1dtqB8jjSgUHY0u0cetCUkhsDLTWF7JFT+8dxiAa3WA@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]   ` <<83y2lux5hm.fsf@gnu.org>
2020-08-31 14:53     ` Drew Adams
2020-08-31 20:00       ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-01  3:22         ` Stefan Monnier
     [not found]         ` <b4cc3f5f-ef29-4b2c-b7f3-0a2572cd5869@default>
     [not found]           ` <alpine.NEB.2.22.394.2009011047360453.11413@sdf.lonestar.org>
2020-09-01 14:54             ` Drew Adams
2020-09-01 17:00               ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-01 20:31                 ` Stefan Monnier

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