From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: PPAATT@aol.com Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: bindings reserved for users Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 11:30:28 EDT Sender: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org Message-ID: <8f.1b0ba8cd.29facc94@aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1019835234 16477 127.0.0.1 (26 Apr 2002 15:33:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 15:33:54 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE, eliz@is.elta.co.il Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1 (Debian)) id 1717jO-0004He-00 for ; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 17:33:54 +0200 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([199.232.76.164]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1717m5-0003kG-00 for ; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 17:36:41 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 1717j5-0006O5-00; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 11:33:35 -0400 Original-Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.36]) by fencepost.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 1717gr-0005Ay-00; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 11:31:17 -0400 Original-Received: from PPAATT@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id l.8f.1b0ba8cd (4569); Fri, 26 Apr 2002 11:30:29 -0400 (EDT) Original-To: monnier+gnu/emacs@RUM.cs.yale.edu X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 Errors-To: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:3303 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:3303 > > > Date: 4/20/02 11:28:15 AM MDT > > > From: rms@gnu.org (Richard Stallman) > > ... > > > Since such characters > > > are not available on all terminals, ... > > > People won't want to use these keys in major modes > > > or minor modes meant for general use. > > > > Looks to me like Emacs folk actually do > > commonly bind rare keys for general use? > > Subj: Re: across terminals > Date: 4/26/02 8:19:16 AM MDT > From: monnier+gnu/emacs@RUM.cs.yale.edu > > `e' with an acute accent is a letter, `]' is not. Yes. And Unicode xE9 EWithAcute often appears as a letter key in Montreal. > > C-h i m emacs RET m keymaps RET ... > The experience until now is that > non-ASCII letters are never used > by major modes or minor modes, > so we [haven't needed] to decide > whether they should be reserved for the user or not. Curious. I can make sense of the RMS English this way, thank you ... except I see you didn't write exactly this. Where I write [] brackets, you actually wrote "we don't need" to decide? Did you mean to say we don't need to decide the key sequences we have reserved for the user? Really?? We don't? Shouldn't we state precisely what keys we have reserved for the user? The earlier, the clearer, the better? > the manual's description ... > the casual reader might confuse > the notion of letter and character. Good new point, thank you. We've also heard recently here from people confusing the notion of a lower case English letter with other notions of letter, like upper and lower case letters, not to mention "the letter keys". > ... What first drew my attention here was me failing to find any commonly available shifted key left reserved for the user by GNU Emacs. For example, I'd like a short sequence like M-o C-c to remind me "kill-ring-save is on C-insert, M-w", because I know well the local (Windows) convention of edit-cut, edit-copy, and edit-paste being on C-x, C-c, and C-v. I think [ C-h i m emacs RET m keymaps RET ] tells me Emacs reserves for my use only the single keys F5 thru F9: no single key that I can hit without looking. If M-n M-o M-p are not candidates to be reserved for the user, how about the other single keys not bound by Emacs 20.7.1 by default i.e. C-` C-= C-; C-' C-, C-. These I can hit on a US keyboard almost as easily as I can hit M-n M-o M-p. And I'd find C-= mnemonic for my purpose. > ... I'm here only by cc - please feel free to banish me back to gnu.emacs.help when appropriate. Thanks again everyone, Pat LaVarre http://members.aol.com/plscsi/emacs/emacs-deja-vu.html Subj: Re: across terminals Date: 4/26/02 8:19:16 AM Mountain Daylight Time From: monnier+gnu/emacs@RUM.cs.yale.edu (Stefan Monnier) ... > > From: rms@gnu.org (Richard Stallman) > > Let's consider this issue closed > > and NOT SPEND MORE TIME on it, OK? > > This we could do by fiat, sure boss. > > > I stand by what I said. > > I'm new here I know, but certainly I am > as yet failing to make sense of what you said. > > Do you mean to withdraw or otherwise modify > what you did not repeat? That is ... > > > Date: 4/20/02 11:28:15 AM MDT > > From: rms@gnu.org (Richard Stallman) > ... > > Since such characters are not available on all > > terminals, ... People won't want to use these > > keys in major modes or minor modes > > meant for general use. > > Looks to me like Emacs folk actually do > commonly bind rare keys for general use? The experience until now is that non-ASCII letters are never used by major modes or minor modes, so we don't need to decide whether they should be reserved for the user or not. And note that we are talking about letters, not about characters. `e' with an acute accent is a letter, `]' is not. I think the only problem with the manual's description is that the casual reader might confuse the notion of letter and character. Stefan