From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 23:23:11 +0300 Message-ID: <8ac2d87c-7f8f-4370-82bc-77c7dfceb4c5@yandex.ru> References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1462393766 11387 80.91.229.3 (4 May 2016 20:29:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 20:29:26 +0000 (UTC) Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org To: John Wiegley , Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed May 04 22:29:14 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ay3Px-0002hK-O7 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 22:29:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50137 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay3Pt-0005gH-U3 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 16:29:05 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:51939) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay3LG-0004Yt-L9 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 16:24:25 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay3L4-0000OR-LI for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 16:24:13 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:54199) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay3L3-0000LY-FP for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 16:24:06 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay3L0-0006oC-4R for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 16:24:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Dmitry Gutov Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 20:24:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23425 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 23425-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B23425.146239340226114 (code B ref 23425); Wed, 04 May 2016 20:24:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 20:23:22 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38302 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay3KL-0006n6-Qh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 16:23:22 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wm0-f45.google.com ([74.125.82.45]:35462) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay3KJ-0006mt-V7 for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 16:23:20 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wm0-f45.google.com with SMTP id e201so202867723wme.0 for <23425@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 04 May 2016 13:23:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ktv1il8nFXGdeX+dhh0HSZsU3zMPNpL5ZA9LBshgCRo=; b=TuRODOIchvVPxn+mTMbpenSiBRvQTtLxY8VbsN/gx9TuR9WrVI5Jk+8WO0xPGVe8bI p1C2du9BIDzX52ZhGKJ2Z0cdxB96DcDWom/h6OgFhK9bohLLMvJT2BoEmn4uLkgKM0z1 xbRlp0lenGTwEzO4XY+Gi0BnJOieQi9YCTiAZLUey4D0GmjbIfJtkVlyU2Stv6CfRlZL 1+J/Vc4OmcO/3c0a6zhRstLouBKWOJFlrXwa9nfG2+Gvt1hQ1Xx9I3keMXpWWb2y8Req SInlvLf3glemYGZXq+A53Gpod0+yApfbNMJ9OaitOfnNlF2AUpEYdvLqY0UBxs2lmE2y HwPQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ktv1il8nFXGdeX+dhh0HSZsU3zMPNpL5ZA9LBshgCRo=; b=E8h0fUexVmBfokyFFvx0EOgE1qgJhPpHLhm99uoV0lx0SVo0xpr1AH+uiMz1H4asV+ USmNjqI0qHMSj0/T+vNkXPS9Z/57tYZQeEY1pyroZ2mMy8rVaRA82Q5StfU+Edn6Dn9h ATqmQe08jLVTPe/Yt0jUNN9PyDrc/1/vMuSAoAgowN1Mgj7AXBOAY1QnBNl1ECAY1jQY wzZWkBvtH9Y+xstUAPKzX3d3H8TosYSSZ4c76Hj2oe2qvocLcEfEP8idS5AB5D16U4T9 OD6OexZ3Q1Yau47GWwRGQcttphniNLUUHHA8Zjs1xyM602d8RCymEyRqrzt15fas655z z5ZA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUsOWmZhs30bjnYqfe3GBxPrsX8syfVyAzcrtLzOFwL+krJPPRI76XwF7N94+Pd6Q== X-Received: by 10.194.76.137 with SMTP id k9mr10438437wjw.3.1462393394175; Wed, 04 May 2016 13:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([185.105.175.24]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id ip10sm6065432wjb.33.2016.05.04.13.23.12 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 04 May 2016 13:23:13 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1 In-Reply-To: X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:117800 Archived-At: On 05/04/2016 09:46 PM, John Wiegley wrote: > As maintainer, I'll go on record by saying that I very much dislike the new > curly quotes logic. After the reactions I've read here, I'm convinced again > that a customization option needs to exist in 25.1, so we can easily recommend > it to people who react as Alan has done. This doesn't seem like a good idea to me. If we add a custom option, doesn't that constitute a promise that the curly quote translation *will* work for at least several releases of Emacs after that? Because the option would have a value meaning "translate straight quotes to curlies", and we'll have to support it once the option is introduced. > In fact, I would like to rip all the curly-quote redisplay logic out of Emacs, > for several reasons: I would too (though I wouldn't actually mind it if it were implemented in a very different fashion). But this is a totally different direction from "let's add a user option". I think. > 3. It has provoked heated debate many times already. The amount of time > lost on emacs-devel to this one issue is an absolute shame. Word. > 4. It changes Emacs according to the preferences of specific people, without > giving others -- in the very spirit of Emacs! -- an option to choose > one's desired behavior in the standard fashion. > > At this point, I cannot undo this feature, since that would destabilize 25.1. Can we actually leave it in, while all but promising to take it out in the next release? That would seem like an odd choice. > Lastly, to play devil's advocate: I also recognize, after having written this, > that I'm something of an "old fogey" in Emacs terms, with a special place for > ASCII in my heart. It's quite possible that the new-and-coming generation is > very fond of Unicode, and they will all love this feature, since it gives > Emacs a more modern "feel". For their sake, I'm prepared to wait for the > world's judgment before deciding that this feature is entirely terrible. As a member of a somewhat younger generation, I can say that they look fine in Help buffers, manuals, and so on, although they do not look "modern". The curly single quotes feel more like certain tech in alternative history novels: shiny, could be considered cool in some very specific circles, but nobody uses anything like that in the modern times. I never want to see them in my source code, though, and the benefits, whatever they are, do not justify the increased complexity in the associated facilities. > But for the sake of my fellow dinosaurs, I need a way to turn it off! Please! > They are like tiny knives, stabbing at my mind with their Unicode edges; or a > plague of typeset locusts, foretelling the soon-to-come Apostroclypse. The problem with using the "don't translate at all" option is that it allows you to write code that won't work for other users. For instance, if we had such an option now, Alan wouldn't have found the presently discussed bug. It wouldn't not manifest with his setup, but it would manifest in default Emacs configuration where quote translation is enabled, and the majority of the users would suffer. For that reason only, I'm against having an option like that.