From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: uzibalqa Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: [External] : menu-item uses no dot period before item-property-list in examples Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 16:56:57 +0000 Message-ID: <8KVXyoB690_WRcSshJNWRyfpXnFuHH1EeoSyseQ4vom2ykOfJzM-OLn_VXHJ0rtmAXRCAShQpwGUmEbfnXkjQx2P3iq8btzAfB5hqINKiPo=@proton.me> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="29930"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: uzibalqa via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 17 18:57:51 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qLRXi-0007Sd-Ar for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 18:57:50 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qLRXG-0008IO-GM; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 12:57:22 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qLRXD-0008I0-E6 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 12:57:19 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-4318.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.18]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qLRXA-0007SD-NU for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 12:57:19 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1689613033; x=1689872233; bh=5Y1rpITQxs13n+B18o1v6d7ONCwp3Ab/X6q99owyt6U=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=AHkHm4xjiWHRmIVPgTm6pbvzgax6CACsiaiQfUEwjlxOAa2u2iMZJmYTvGZO2usTB SNXCas8mjCEK9pLze2w4d66oUGY8wrqcJ4himUSwQvYTOTOCMpipdQ9+GE8zAY44km QL0f3X4Z1i0ab8Ao2X1qKrDzy3Wg04dY3JyaBD2jqTUVkmTbzwnFTlNDY/qy2LwZR4 DHbTYsykipKxr8kbsq2Q5UhjR4vpUDYWb+cR4DjvoI5j61oO+1l5VnyP5lXD+NJFkr n/SJiRLRcFhfxyqW9FncB9Abv8LHMueINP84QJu/ATqkPIdcDsFHZdK752LQYrN0t1 NJvkcbPBgE9MA== In-Reply-To: Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.70.43.18; envelope-from=uzibalqa@proton.me; helo=mail-4318.protonmail.ch X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:144302 Archived-At: ------- Original Message ------- On Tuesday, July 18th, 2023 at 4:36 AM, Drew Adams = wrote: > > > > So why bother users in the manual why that is never actually used. > > > > (menu-item item-name real-binding item-property-list) > > >=20 > > > I hope you meant this, which is not the same thing: > > > (menu-item item-name real-binding > > > . item-property-list) > > >=20 > > > item-property-list is not an element of the > > > overall list. It's "spliced" into that list, > > > as its tail. > >=20 > > Actual code implementations using menu-item does not include > > '.' before 'item-property-list'. > > (menu-item item-name real-binding . item-property-list) >=20 >=20 > Look again. item-property-list must be a list. > That list is not included as an element in > the list that starts (menu-item.... >=20 > Instead, the elements of item-property-list > are included as elements of list (menu-item.... > That's apparently what you're not getting. >=20 > Example: >=20 > '(menu-item "Load" diredp-load-this-file > :help "Load this Elisp file") >=20 > item-name is "Load". > real-binding is diredp-load-this-file > item-property-list is > this 2-element list: (:help > "Load this Elisp file") >=20 > You do not see this: >=20 > '(menu-item "Load" diredp-load-this-file > (:help "Load this Emacs Lisp file")) > ^ ^ >=20 > which is equal to this: >=20 > '(menu-item "Load" diredp-load-this-file > . ((:help "Load this Emacs Lisp file"))) > ^ ^ ^ >=20 > What you do see is equal to this: >=20 > '(menu-item "Load" diredp-load-this-file > . (:help "Load this Emacs Lisp file")) >=20 > Now ask yourself why the syntax spec > shows a dot before item-property-list. >=20 > If you still don't get it, take a break, > stand on your head for a few minutes, run > around the block, then study this again... > till you do. >=20 > When you finally get it, go look at the > Emacs documentation that introduces lists > and their notation. You'll find it very > clear, I think. All of this is explained. >=20 > And yes, you should read the basics, such > as notation, before you start trying to > interpret the use of such notation in the > doc. E.g., before you try to interpret the > presentation of the syntax of extended menu > items, learn about Lisp dot notation. >=20 > And as has also been said, this isn't just > a doc notational convention. It's in fact > the actual, effective, real-life Lisp list > syntax. Will check things out. =20 > Crawl, then walk, before trying to run. > That way, you'll find that running isn't > so difficult, mysterious, confusing, scary, > or user-unfriendly. >=20 > And that way maybe you'll stop kvetching > that you're "drowning" and that folks need > to quickly line up and start saving you. >=20 > Don't presume that those trying to help you > don't get it. You're not the first person > to learn Lisp, and you're not the first one > that people here, and Emacs itself, has > helped. >=20 > And maybe read this - it might be humbling. >=20 > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning=E2=80=93Kruger_effect So now I am low-ability and the rest of you are high-ability. Have you hea= rd=20 about "expert blindness" or "the curse of knowledge" ? Individuals with hi= gh=20 ability or expertise overlooking or underestimating certain problems, leadi= ng=20 to negative outcomes or disasters.