From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: angle-bracket notation for keys (was: Selection changes) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 22:42:26 -0700 Message-ID: <8F4BFF7C861A4C829E17005E14A14690@us.oracle.com> References: <4C3FAF2F.8060700@alice.it> <4C40275D.704@harpegolden.net> <4C42418F.4060600@alice.it> <83fwzhebgg.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1279431768 1780 80.91.229.12 (18 Jul 2010 05:42:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 05:42:48 +0000 (UTC) Cc: cyd@stupidchicken.com, david@harpegolden.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org, angelo.graziosi@alice.it To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 18 07:42:45 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OaMeC-0004Hx-Hm for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 18 Jul 2010 07:42:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56055 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OaMeB-0006Us-Ix for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 18 Jul 2010 01:42:43 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=54589 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OaMe1-0006UD-1F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Jul 2010 01:42:34 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OaMdz-00080I-Pp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Jul 2010 01:42:32 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]:49778) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OaMdz-000808-G0; Sun, 18 Jul 2010 01:42:31 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o6I5gQgm024722 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 18 Jul 2010 05:42:27 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt355.oracle.com (acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o6I415Hr031690; Sun, 18 Jul 2010 05:42:25 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt021.oracle.com by acsmt355.oracle.com with ESMTP id 414265441279431737; Sat, 17 Jul 2010 22:42:17 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.175.236.167) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 17 Jul 2010 22:42:17 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <83fwzhebgg.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: AcsmJkgS0yKnDeJRQ+ajwSkTW8j0GQAEOrwg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Source-IP: acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090203.4C429441.014E:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127543 Archived-At: > > > '<...-insertchar>' is very ugly and... unattractive! > > is what makeinfo produces from @key{FOO}. The purpose of @key > is to distinguish between a single keypress and typing the keys F, O, > and O in that order. In the printed manual, @key produces a picture > of a key with a label. > > If you want to suggest a change in what @key produces in the on-line > Info manual, this isn't the right forum. You need to write to > bug-texinfo@gnu.org. I believe this was all discussed in those old threads, and I really do not wish to reopen the discussion - that wasn't my purpose, as I said. If others want to pursue it, fine - I've already summarized what I think about it. If there's another tour around the block I'll sit this one out. To be clear, however, I'm not really concerned about what appears in the printed manual. My concern (really, my _only_ concern wrt this question) is the UI and online doc (Info). I made that clear before, as well. And I have nothing to say about the tools we use to create Info or the printed manual. My point was only about how Emacs talks about itself when you use it: help, messages, Info. The format we use is unnecessarily ugly and noisy. A better notation is possible (more than one, no doubt). That's all. Whether moving to such a better notation would be difficult in terms of tools used I cannot say. I'm not interested in pursuing such tool changes, myself. If others want to do that, and if bug-texinfo@gnu.org is the place to do it, be my guest. To repeat, however, it is not only, or even primarily, about the manual, even the online one (Info). The UI is not created by makeinfo, AFAIK. We've decided to use angle brackets for named keys throughout the UI. The Lisp functions that we've written intentionally return the angle-bracket syntax: `' vs `mouse-2'. That's not the fault of makeinfo. See the old threads for info about some of those functions. The result gets an `A' for consistency, but an `<>' for readability, IMO. FWIW, I use Emacs 20 quite often (testing libraries etc.), and even though its use of key notation is inconsistent (`' and `TAB') it is far better than the consistent interface of Emacs 22+ - easier on the eyes and brain (parsing). Fewer unnecessary brackets gives you a welcome break. You know the tired joke about LISP meaning Lots of Irritating, Superfluous Parentheses. Well, they aren't superfluous, but our angle brackets surely are.