Re: Dvorak layout except when modifier key is pressed

Re: Dvorak layout except when modifier key is pressed

[B. T. Raven]

Vincent C wrote:
> Is it possible to have dvorak keybindings except when hitting a ctrl
> or meta key combinations? (ie: switch back to QWERTY in that case)
> 
> 

Bad idea (imho). See Xah Lee's sensible suggestions here (and at associated 
links):

http://xahlee.org/emacs/ergonomic_emacs_keybinding.html

I think that if the developers could be persuaded to adopt even a small part 
of Xah's suggestions, that would probably go farther to making emacs 
palatable to more users than even the imminent conversion to Unicode in 
Emacs 23.

At a minimum, find some way to reassign the modifier keys so that they are 
laid out (in a direction away from the space bar) in the order Ctrl, Alt, 
Windows, AppKey. The latter two can be used for super and hyper modifiers.

I am using the Dvorak layout now and even with my non-Space-Cadet keyboard I 
can touch type Alt, Wind, Ctrl with middle, ring, and little fingers 
respectively. If/when I upgrade from w98 to 2000, I will immediately convert 
to many of Xah's keybindings (all of them if the developers adopt them). The 
most important, after the modifier keys, are the cursor movement keychords 
with Ctrl:(h,t,n,c for left, down, right, up, with the Dvorak layout).

Ed.

Re: Dvorak layout except when modifier key is pressed

[Stefan Monnier]

> At a minimum, find some way to reassign the modifier keys so that they are
> laid out (in a direction away from the space bar) in the order Ctrl, Alt,
> Windows, AppKey. The latter two can be used for super and hyper modifiers.

If you expect Emacs to change that, you're deluded: you need to look at
your keyboard config instead.


        Stefan

Re: Dvorak layout except when modifier key is pressed

[B. T. Raven]

Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> At a minimum, find some way to reassign the modifier keys so that they are
>> laid out (in a direction away from the space bar) in the order Ctrl, Alt,
>> Windows, AppKey. The latter two can be used for super and hyper modifiers.
> 
> If you expect Emacs to change that, you're deluded: you need to look at
> your keyboard config instead.
> 
> 
>         Stefan


I can do this via the Keytweak Program in a msw environment. How do I do the 
same thing in Linux? Is there something that redefines the modifier keys at 
a system level? (i.e so that they would work as described above even in a 
terminal session? It seems that Linux should have the capability to 
reconfigure a vanilla keyboard to work in this fashion:

bottom key row -- super alt ctrl <space bar> ctrl alt super hyper

This would go part way toward making modifier sequences more ergonomically 
feasible.

Ed

Re: Dvorak layout except when modifier key is pressed

[Andreas Eder]

Hi B,

>>>>> "B" == B T Raven <nihil@nihilo.net> writes:

    B> I can do this via the Keytweak Program in a msw environment. How do I
    B> do the same thing in Linux? Is there something that redefines the
    B> modifier keys at a system level? (i.e so that they would work as
    B> described above even in a terminal session? It seems that Linux should
    B> have the capability to reconfigure a vanilla keyboard to work in this
    B> fashion:

    B> bottom key row -- super alt ctrl <space bar> ctrl alt super hyper

Have a look at xmodmap. You can tweak your keyboard layout to
whatever you like with it.

'Andreas
-- 
Wherever I lay my .emacs, there's my $HOME.

Re: Dvorak layout except when modifier key is pressed

[B. T. Raven]

Andreas Eder wrote:
> Hi B,
> 
>>>>>> "B" == B T Raven <nihil@nihilo.net> writes:
> 
>     B> I can do this via the Keytweak Program in a msw environment. How do I
>     B> do the same thing in Linux? Is there something that redefines the
>     B> modifier keys at a system level? (i.e so that they would work as
>     B> described above even in a terminal session? It seems that Linux should
>     B> have the capability to reconfigure a vanilla keyboard to work in this
>     B> fashion:
> 
>     B> bottom key row -- super alt ctrl <space bar> ctrl alt super hyper
> 
> Have a look at xmodmap. You can tweak your keyboard layout to
> whatever you like with it.
> 
> 'Andreas

Thanks, Andreas. I recently installed Fedora 8 but it has only the basic 
Linux functionality. I think there is something called "Developer Spin" 
(another DVD) that I need to get the Emacs files.


Ed

Re: Dvorak layout except when modifier key is pressed

[Rupert Swarbrick]

On Tue, 25 Dec 2007 19:31:21 -0600, B. T. Raven wrote:
> Andreas Eder wrote:
>> Have a look at xmodmap. You can tweak your keyboard layout to whatever
>> you like with it.
>> 
>> 'Andreas
> 
> Thanks, Andreas. I recently installed Fedora 8 but it has only the basic
> Linux functionality. I think there is something called "Developer Spin"
> (another DVD) that I need to get the Emacs files.
> 
> 
> Ed

I think it's almost guaranteed that you have xmodmap - I believe it's a 
core X11 app*. Try xmodmap on the command line? Then man xmodmap 
(together with some heavy googling: it's a bit hard I found).

Good luck - and I for one would be very interested to know whether you 
have any success,

Rupert

* I'm on debian, but I notice for example that gdm indirectly depends on 
the package containing it.

Re: Dvorak layout except when modifier key is pressed

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 26.12.2007 um 02:31 schrieb B. T. Raven:

> I recently installed Fedora 8 but it has only the basic Linux  
> functionality. I think there is something called "Developer  
> Spin" (another DVD) that I need to get the Emacs files.

No, no! Xmodmap is a basic utility of X11. If you haven't installed  
X11, then of course you have only something basic before you. The  
developer packages usually contain C header files and static  
libraries. Of course you can count compiler packages to the developer  
packages. And sometimes (I think with Fedora always) you also get the  
source code for the packages, except they are third party drivers,  
for example for the graphics adapter.

Commonly X11 is started (and personalised) with the help of a little  
script ~/.xinitrc or ~/.xsession. Templates for these files contain  
invocations of xrdb (to load and set X resources), xset (to set the  
path to X11 font repositories), and xmodmap, to correct the meaning  
of keyboard keys, particularly to set modifier keys like shift,  
control, alt, hyper, super, compose. And xmodmap allows you to swap  
left and right mouse buttons, which the left hand might like when you  
used for the pointing device.

--
Greetings

   Pete

Got Mole problems?
Call Avogadro 6.02 x 10^23

Re: Dvorak layout except when modifier key is pressed

[B. T. Raven]

Peter Dyballa wrote:
> 
> Am 26.12.2007 um 02:31 schrieb B. T. Raven:
> 
>> I recently installed Fedora 8 but it has only the basic Linux 
>> functionality. I think there is something called "Developer Spin" 
>> (another DVD) that I need to get the Emacs files.
> 
> No, no! Xmodmap is a basic utility of X11. If you haven't installed X11, 
> then of course you have only something basic before you. The developer 
> packages usually contain C header files and static libraries. Of course 
> you can count compiler packages to the developer packages. And sometimes 
> (I think with Fedora always) you also get the source code for the 
> packages, except they are third party drivers, for example for the 
> graphics adapter.
> 
> Commonly X11 is started (and personalised) with the help of a little 
> script ~/.xinitrc or ~/.xsession. Templates for these files contain 
> invocations of xrdb (to load and set X resources), xset (to set the path 
> to X11 font repositories), and xmodmap, to correct the meaning of 
> keyboard keys, particularly to set modifier keys like shift, control, 
> alt, hyper, super, compose. And xmodmap allows you to swap left and 
> right mouse buttons, which the left hand might like when you used for 
> the pointing device.
> 
> -- 
> Greetings
> 
>   Pete
> 
> Got Mole problems?
> Call Avogadro 6.02 x 10^23


Thanks Rupert and Peter. I do have xmodmap on the Gnu-Linux (Gnulix or 
Glunix?) computer but I haven't been able to grok how it works. Keytweak was 
a breeze. One of the first things I did was to run xev and press different 
keys to get the correct key designations for xmodmap syntax. Most keypresses 
generated a short report on the event but "Sleep" put the screen and 
keyboard into a coma from which I could recover only by pulling the plug. 
Luckily the file system wasn't corrupted and it booted up again without a 
problem. Other episodes in the nightmare are 1) install without network 
support [ethernet card but no network] 2)DSP winmodem not recognized by 
GLnix [martian Linmodem tarball successfully unpacked and compiled with Make 
all and make install disappeared somewhere 3) Emacs 22.1 tarball tranferred 
from msw machine download on flash drive can be started from terminal but 
Gnome doesn't seem to know anything about it. ... etc. etc.

Does any of you know what xmodmap expressions I can put in some file so that 
my two users (ec and su or sudo) can have the same keyboard with bottom row 
super, alt, ctl, space, ctl, alt, super, hyper?

Are Mod1 thru Mod5 synonyms for these modifiers keys? More importantly, is 
this system level stuff off topic here?

Ed

Re: Dvorak layout except when modifier key is pressed

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 27.12.2007 um 18:45 schrieb B. T. Raven:

> Does any of you know what xmodmap expressions I can put in some  
> file so that my two users (ec and su or sudo) can have the same  
> keyboard with bottom row super, alt, ctl, space, ctl, alt, super,  
> hyper?

In shell you can 'man xmodmap', in GNU Emacs you have two more  
choices: manual-entry and woman.

>
> Are Mod1 thru Mod5 synonyms for these modifiers keys? More  
> importantly, is this system level stuff off topic here?


These are the generic symbols. You can make them being this or that  
or something else. To change a previous setting (xmodmap -pm), you  
first need to "reset" it:

	clear Shift
	clear Lock
	clear Control
	clear Mod1
	clear Mod2
	clear Mod3
	clear Mod4
	clear Mod5

then ad(d)just:

	add    Shift   = Shift_L	Shift_R
	add    Lock    = Caps_Lock
	add    Control = Control_L	Control_R
	add    Mod1    = Mode_switch	Mode_switch
	add    Mod2    = Meta_L		Meta_R
	add    Mod3    = Alt_L		Alt_R
	add    Mod4    = Hyper_L	Hyper_R
	add    Mod5    = Super_L	Super_R

Generally you can set the "key bindings" like:

	keycode 0x35 =  n               N               dead_tilde      U203A
	keycode 66 = Meta_L

(first line hex value for key code, second example with decimal value)

First column: no modifier
Second column: with Shift modifier
Third column: with Alt modifier
Fourth column: with Shift and Alt modifiers

The names are defined in /usr/X11/include/X11/keysymdef.h.


Multi_key is a nice thing: pressing Multi_key o / could produce ø.  
Not sure whether it's still supported ...

--
Mit friedvollen Grüßen

   Pete

Eat the rich – the poor are tough and stringy.

Re: Dvorak layout except when modifier key is pressed

[B. T. Raven]

Peter Dyballa wrote:
> 
> Am 27.12.2007 um 18:45 schrieb B. T. Raven:
> 
>> Does any of you know what xmodmap expressions I can put in some file 
>> so that my two users (ec and su or sudo) can have the same keyboard 
>> with bottom row super, alt, ctl, space, ctl, alt, super, hyper?
> 
> In shell you can 'man xmodmap', in GNU Emacs you have two more choices: 
> manual-entry and woman.
> 
>>
>> Are Mod1 thru Mod5 synonyms for these modifiers keys? More 
>> importantly, is this system level stuff off topic here?
> 
> 
> These are the generic symbols. You can make them being this or that or 
> something else. To change a previous setting (xmodmap -pm), you first 
> need to "reset" it:
> 
>     clear Shift

>     clear Lock   !! I think this is the only one I need to clear if the ones below are already appropriately bound. Right?

>     clear Control
>     clear Mod1
>     clear Mod2
>     clear Mod3
>     clear Mod4
>     clear Mod5

Thanks for this. I learned more from your response that from a lot of 
googling and reading man and info pages.

> 
> then ad(d)just:
> 
>     add    Shift   = Shift_L    Shift_R

  !     add    Lock    = Caps_Lock !! I want this to be Hyper_L . Will this 
conflict with your Mod4 assignment below?

>     add    Control = Control_L    Control_R

!     add    Mod1    = Mode_switch    Mode_switch !! This I don't understand 
at all. Is it the M$ Menu key?

!     add    Mod2    = Meta_L        Meta_R  !! I don't need this since I 
don't have a Meta key, right?

>     add    Mod3    = Alt_L        Alt_R
>     add    Mod4    = Hyper_L    Hyper_R
>     add    Mod5    = Super_L    Super_R
> 
> Generally you can set the "key bindings" like:
> 
>     keycode 0x35 =  n               N               dead_tilde      U203A
>     keycode 66 = Meta_L

This keycode method seems like the easiest way to swap keys since I can get 
the keycodes from xev. Are the above "clear" and "add" lines still needed? 
In my /etc/X11/Xmodmap file (all commented out) I read:


! keycode and keysym remapping should generally be used only if the X
! server config file has been configured to disable the XKEYBOARD
! extension

Where is the server config file? Is this something I have to worry about or 
can I just add these lines to that file? :

clear Lock
!.
!. maybe other expressions
!.
add Lock = Hyper_L !! Is that meaningful?

keycode 66 = Hyper_L !! is this needed even with the above add Lock expression?

keycode 37 = Super_L
keycode 115 = Alt_L  !! It says Alt on the keycap.
keycode 64 = Control_L
keycode 113 = Control_R
keycode 116 = Alt_R !! Again that's on keycap. Can't I just say alt-is-meta 
or something somewhere?

keycode 117 = Super_R
keycode 109 = Hyper_R





> 
> (first line hex value for key code, second example with decimal value)
> 
> First column: no modifier
> Second column: with Shift modifier
> Third column: with Alt modifier
> Fourth column: with Shift and Alt modifiers

I read that there can be eight columns but that most apps don't support 
beyond four. Does Emacs? Could I globalsetkey something to [(shift control 
alt super hyper h)] ? Of course this would be difficult to touch type unless 
  all keychords that included the shift modifier and at least one other 
modifier were made sticky. The whole point of this for me is to be able to 
touch type most keychord combinations.


> 
> The names are defined in /usr/X11/include/X11/keysymdef.h.

In Fedora 8 this was in /usr/include/X11/keysymdef.h

> 
> 
> Multi_key is a nice thing: pressing Multi_key o / could produce ø. Not 
> sure whether it's still supported ...

I want to do all this sort of thing with Emacs (leim) input methods.

> 
> -- 
> Mit friedvollen Grüßen
> 
>   Pete
> 
> Eat the rich – the poor are tough and stringy.

Thanks again. If you don't have time to answer this I can probably figure it 
out with some (a lot) of experimenting but I don't know what's safe and 
what's dangerous.

Ed

Re: Dvorak layout except when modifier key is pressed

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 28.12.2007 um 04:05 schrieb B. T. Raven:

>> then ad(d)just:
>>     add    Shift   = Shift_L    Shift_R
>
>  !     add    Lock    = Caps_Lock !! I want this to be Hyper_L .  
> Will this conflict with your Mod4 assignment below?

You don't need to follow my examples. I was not trying to solve your  
keyboard layout problem, just giving hints. The Lock "function" can  
of course be performed by a key that also supplies the Hyper_L  
modifier. With funny results.

>
>>     add    Control = Control_L    Control_R
>
> !     add    Mod1    = Mode_switch    Mode_switch !! This I don't  
> understand at all. Is it the M$ Menu key?

If no keycode is mapped to produce the Mode_switch keysymbol, you  
can't assign Mode_switch  to Mod1 modifier. If you don't want to have  
a Mod1 modifier, you don't need to assign it. You can choose any  
defined key(symbol) to perform a modifier function.

>
> !     add    Mod2    = Meta_L        Meta_R  !! I don't need this  
> since I don't have a Meta key, right?

So leave it cleared! All modifier and control and shift and lock keys  
are optional.

>
>>     add    Mod3    = Alt_L        Alt_R
>>     add    Mod4    = Hyper_L    Hyper_R
>>     add    Mod5    = Super_L    Super_R
>> Generally you can set the "key bindings" like:
>>     keycode 0x35 =  n               N                
>> dead_tilde      U203A
>>     keycode 66 = Meta_L
>
> This keycode method seems like the easiest way to swap keys since I  
> can get the keycodes from xev.

Or 'xmodmap -pke'?

> Are the above "clear" and "add" lines still needed?

Not all. They were meant as a complete example.

> In my /etc/X11/Xmodmap file (all commented out) I read:
>
>
> ! keycode and keysym remapping should generally be used only if the X
> ! server config file has been configured to disable the XKEYBOARD
> ! extension
>
> Where is the server config file? Is this something I have to worry  
> about or can I just add these lines to that file? :

/etc or /etc/X11. The file names will probably contain the  
extension .conf. Man <the X server used> will reveal more details.  
There are configuration programmes for these files. 'apropos  
configure' might reveal the programmes and the files. Mistakes can  
prevent X11 to launch, so better make a backup of the file you want  
to change!

If you have a package with XKeyCaps in it, install it. XKeyCaps can  
be quite helpful in many ways.

>
> clear Lock
> !.
> !. maybe other expressions
> !.
> add Lock = Hyper_L !! Is that meaningful?

No. The Lock key can't be a modifier key, your car not a bike. (But  
the key that emits the Lock symbol can be changed to emit Hyper_L  
symbol.)

>
> keycode 66 = Hyper_L !! is this needed even with the above add Lock  
> expression?

You can set:

	my modifier Nº 1 is my right pinky.

As long as there is no keysymbol "right pinky" defined as being  
emitted by some key, you can't assign that symbol to a "function"  
like Mod<whatsoever>.

>
> keycode 37 = Super_L
> keycode 115 = Alt_L  !! It says Alt on the keycap.

So what? Aren't you going to tell your Linux PC that X is U?

> keycode 64 = Control_L
> keycode 113 = Control_R
> keycode 116 = Alt_R !! Again that's on keycap. Can't I just say alt- 
> is-meta or something somewhere?

Of course you can set it to Meta, either right side or left side.  
You're free to do what you want, since your computer can't read what  
its keys are imprinted with. The keycode is something like a "scan  
code" that a controller IC sends to the CPU. This same "scan code"  
can have in different environments different meanings ("switching  
keyboards [encodings/layouts]"). With 'keycode equals keysymbol' you  
assign the dumb "scan code" to something meaningful an user (high  
level) programme can work with.

>
> I read that there can be eight columns but that most apps don't  
> support beyond four. Does Emacs?

I don't know. Make a try: assign on the fly some key some more  
keysymbols. For example a, emitting the usual "a symbols," then b and  
B, and finally c and C. So you'll easily see what Modx-a or Modx-A  
deliver. And it's easy to restore: M-p, some delete, RET.

> Could I globalsetkey something to [(shift control alt super hyper  
> h)] ?

Emacs key-bindings are independent of those in X11 or any other  
windowing system. GNU Emacs receives the keysymbols, not the  
keycodes. It can handle only those keysymbols it receives. What you  
tell it to do with the received keysymbols is up to you. So it's  
surely possible to leave the keyboard's layout in X as is and change  
it to Dvořak only in GNU Emacs.

>
>> Multi_key is a nice thing: pressing Multi_key o / could produce ø.  
>> Not sure whether it's still supported ...
>
> I want to do all this sort of thing with Emacs (leim) input methods.

Fedora 8 should be capable to substitute leim. Doing so will enable  
you to have the same wealth in all applications. At least with  
Unicode Emacs 23.0.60 you don't leim at all.

--
Greetings

   Pete

What is this talk of 'release?' Klingons do not make software  
'releases.'  Our software 'escapes,' leaving a bloody trail of  
designers and quality assurance people in its wake.

Dvorak layout except when modifier key is pressed

[Vincent C]

Is it possible to have dvorak keybindings except when hitting a ctrl
or meta key combinations? (ie: switch back to QWERTY in that case)

Re: Dvorak layout except when modifier key is pressed

[Oleg Katsitadze]

On Fri, Nov 23, 2007 at 09:35:14PM -0700, Vincent C wrote:
> Is it possible to have dvorak keybindings except when hitting a ctrl
> or meta key combinations? (ie: switch back to QWERTY in that case)

See these:

  http://www.matthewweathers.com/year2004/emacs_dvorak.htm
  http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak/qwerty.el

Unlike the first approach, the second one also works in, e.g.,
ansi-term.

HTH,
Oleg