From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Reitter Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:42:33 -0400 Message-ID: <8D296BE5-A659-4B59-9357-39D1CEAE5B74@gmail.com> References: <2047928B-CCE1-4A20-9280-B671282A819F@Freenet.DE> <1B5766A7-D82A-4E71-807B-532A2DA38E2E@gmail.com> <38FE7C75-06D5-4680-A7EB-0D8F4F810C95@gmail.com> Reply-To: David Reitter , 1993@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-7-887032411; micalg=sha1; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1239041095 17458 80.91.229.12 (6 Apr 2009 18:04:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 18:04:55 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 1993@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com, Peter Dyballa To: Adrian Robert Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 06 20:06:13 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1LqtCL-0005nE-I2 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 06 Apr 2009 20:05:54 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53330 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LqtAx-0006Mf-F6 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:04:03 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LqtAt-0006MW-EP for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:03:59 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LqtAo-0006KC-N1 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:03:59 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=43894 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LqtAo-0006K4-JX for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:03:54 -0400 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu ([138.23.92.77]:58666) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LqtAn-00009u-Su for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:03:54 -0400 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu (rzlab.ucr.edu [127.0.0.1]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n36I3m68022413; Mon, 6 Apr 2009 11:03:48 -0700 Original-Received: (from debbugs@localhost) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id n36Ho3lS018293; Mon, 6 Apr 2009 10:50:03 -0700 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Resent-From: David Reitter Resent-To: bug-submit-list@donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs , owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 17:50:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1993 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs,ns X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 1993-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1993.123903976716752 (code B ref 1993); Mon, 06 Apr 2009 17:50:03 +0000 Original-Received: (at 1993) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 6 Apr 2009 17:42:47 +0000 X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. Original-Received: from mail-qy0-f107.google.com (mail-qy0-f107.google.com [209.85.221.107]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n36HghQm016722 for <1993@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Mon, 6 Apr 2009 10:42:44 -0700 Original-Received: by qyk5 with SMTP id 5so64275qyk.19 for <1993@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Mon, 06 Apr 2009 10:42:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:cc:message-id:from:to :in-reply-to:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:references :x-mailer; bh=ir5EYHr+TrFvE/gzR3uuwa8bwUn0JMAdGeFN9iJgl4E=; b=DQg8pbuyvHEgkS40ZLTeX2DRlpHLHFZTK5By5vYPIZcd8t6sMeWJ8il50H+ji585z4 faEQkkNA1RjF0j/kqyNVykbeU5KgciRsAMOSBy5faIGyhlyN2N2ZbTRbT9OLROpdl8Dh hXGqRlKOeMCgG12acGMWfbjjFddR+YvJjajZQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=cc:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type:mime-version:subject :date:references:x-mailer; b=FVqx0b7NGG+bmYxHpCvcr/MEzdc4v/tGiLpVorv3RkakCEvpm2acD7qouUhgrV6Sck s1/4J52FygDvYanpyjNDc6IceLrcnvNu9Gaa1pYHGLWS0LjmCaSdPOjxaCGy9XsgUye/ jtd2+j13EKt9zvD7zkHG/HUgilYQcur/vjOlc= Original-Received: by 10.224.2.211 with SMTP id 19mr3905449qak.339.1239039757487; Mon, 06 Apr 2009 10:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from SCARLETT.PSY.CMU.EDU (SCARLETT.PSY.CMU.EDU [128.2.249.106]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5sm5032727qwh.8.2009.04.06.10.42.34 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 06 Apr 2009 10:42:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <38FE7C75-06D5-4680-A7EB-0D8F4F810C95@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:03:59 -0400 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:26940 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail-7-887032411 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Apr 6, 2009, at 12:25 AM, Adrian Robert wrote: > > On Apr 4, 2009, at 9:45 PM, David Reitter wrote: >>> >>> I agree with both of these. So perhaps the best default would be >>> command=command (super), alt=none, and the user can set a meta key >>> (additional to esc+) if he/she desires. >> >> Well, that would be another alternative - maybe a good one. It's >> my second-preferred variant. >> >> The reason why I support Command=Meta for Emacs 23 is experience >> from working with Aquamacs and Carbon Emacs users. It seems to me >> that there is a division between Emacs traditionalists, who would >> like an Emacs with maximum compatibility across platforms. These >> people don't need/want Mac keybindings. On the other end, you find >> people with the need for cross-application integration. >> Unsurprisingly, that's the typical Aquamacs user, while the >> traditionalists compile Emacs from scratch or use a distribution >> like Carbon Emacs Package. > > Do W32 users face this same issue? That is, does 'alt' play the > same role on their non-US keyboards as it does on the Mac ones? Can > we follow Emacs on W32 in that case? They have a Windows key... Their issue is that standard key combos like C-x, C-c, C-v collide with Emacs bindings. CUA solved the issue in some way. > IMHO Command is too heavily used on the Mac to simply throw under > the bus by default -- the very user who will like emacs or uses it > on other platforms is exactly the one already using cmd-shortcuts in > other apps on the Mac. Further, "traditionalists" are most prepared > to get their hands dirty and set up a command=meta mapping if they > want it. I've had pretty nasty complaints from people who said that they hit "Command Q" (to fill) because that's what they're used to from Unix systems and their keyboards, and then the app quit on them. > Whereas a less savvy, single-platform user coming to Emacs.app from > Text Edit, XCode, etc. will be most at home with command=super and > alt=alt. As they learn emacs more, they can make their own decision > about which key to give up for meta if they dislike esc+. Well, like I said in my earlier e-mail, I don't think you can make everyone happy. And there are SO many things to upset and derail the newbie user that I wouldn't try to go for a compromise. > In any case the information about these key settings should be > easily accessible to users and the method of changing them should be > easy. This could be done with a customization buffer hyperlinked > from either the splash screen or a help menu item. This could be > reconciled with the desire to keep the interface uniform across all > platforms by allowing a sentence on splash or a single menu item > under Help for platform-specific information. That's a good idea. As per the other e-mail: the top-level customization group should contain "ns" (or "nextstep"), along with a note that these are the Mac specific settings, also (because NS isn't really Mac lingo). -- http://aquamacs.org -- Aquamacs: Emacs on Mac OS X http://aquamacs.org/donate -- Could we help you? 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