From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Emacs learning curve Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 11:05:35 -0700 Message-ID: <8C32E8077A2247548528D6657198F388@us.oracle.com> References: E65F619BF1ED4EF594C6E363871DCB53@us.oracle.com <4C3DF076.1000208@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1279131010 5165 80.91.229.12 (14 Jul 2010 18:10:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:10:10 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "'grischka'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 14 20:10:06 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OZ6PD-0003i8-NY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 20:10:04 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56309 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OZ6PC-0001lm-SO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 14:10:03 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=49871 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OZ6Ow-0001e7-R9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 14:09:48 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OZ6LI-0004gT-Fg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 14:06:01 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]:27314) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OZ6LI-0004g5-Ae for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 14:06:00 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o6EI5u3l018720 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:05:58 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt355.oracle.com (acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o6EG9lQs027564; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:05:56 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt004.oracle.com by acsmt353.oracle.com with ESMTP id 426471601279130738; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 11:05:38 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 11:05:38 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <4C3DF076.1000208@gmx.de> Thread-Index: AcsjeAsheUsuiQPwQ9+bobUmYm227gABUZVw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Source-IP: acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090206.4C3DFC84.024B:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127303 Archived-At: > > It depends on the application and what the user is doing, > > where s?he "naturally" places her point of view. In some > > graphics domains it sometimes makes sense to take the point > > of view of the paper (object) and not the view port; in other > > contexts, vice versa. > > > > "The human" is neither the view port nor the paper, and > > can identify with either, whichever is more convenient/pertinent > > to the task at hand. > > The human can identify with the paper? What drug does that? Ever drag the page around in Adobe Reader or Google Maps or Google Earth? When you drag an object you are identifying with the object, not the window. Dragging is a kind of scrolling. The point is that both points of view can be useful and both are used. The wikipedia page for Scrolling refers to both in its very first paragraph: "In computer graphics, movies, television, and other kinetic displays, scrolling is sliding text, images or video across a monitor or display. Scrolling, as such, does not change the layout of the text or pictures, or but incrementally moves (pans or tilts) the user's view across what is apparently a larger image that is not wholly seen." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrolling Sliding the text (first sentence) vs moving the view (second sentence). Neither has a monopoly wrt scrolling. They are two different vantage points. And sometimes the scrolling affordances or tools we use emphasize one or the other. * A scroll bar typically is associated with the view, not the paper: when you drag it down, the view moves down (and the paper up). * A hand pointer typically is associated with the paper, not the view; when you drag it down, the paper moves down (and the view up). There is nothing new (and nothing controversial) about any of this. It is as old as the hills. What drug makes you see things only one way?