From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#35885: 25.2; Few mistakes in Emacs Manual (+ proposals) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 06:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <89e04fc0-d31b-4247-8126-0b7a7f60d661@default> References: <83k1e2tym6.fsf@gnu.org> <835zpltme6.fsf@gnu.org> <83muiwrn2u.fsf@gnu.org> <1583c6b3-2421-794d-8c8b-86287ef3fd5a@gmail.com> <83tvczb236.fsf@gnu.org> <616312d4-0faf-0382-3f21-5b66327d8d8b@gmail.com> <83tvcx9xyl.fsf@gnu.org> <130c7584-e2ad-d521-d468-4119d462583a@gmail.com> <831s009hxa.fsf@gnu.org> <31ab26f7-a31e-7f4b-f6ba-c050aeeb6833@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="27240"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: 35885@debbugs.gnu.org To: Sebastian Urban , Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 12 15:33:38 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hb3Nh-0006xV-FT for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; 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Wed, 12 Jun 2019 13:26:31 GMT Original-Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2t1jpj1109-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 12 Jun 2019 13:26:31 +0000 Original-Received: from abhmp0017.oracle.com (abhmp0017.oracle.com [141.146.116.23]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id x5CDPfD6011381; Wed, 12 Jun 2019 13:25:43 GMT In-Reply-To: <31ab26f7-a31e-7f4b-f6ba-c050aeeb6833@gmail.com> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4861.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9285 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1906120092 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9285 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1906120092 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 209.51.188.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:160435 Archived-At: > > As for the few examples saying "if N is negative =E2=88= =92N > > times": sorry, I cannot see anything wrong with such wording, so > > I left those few examples alone. >=20 > Well I don't think I can explain this more clearly, so I'm going to > put this next to 'C-g C-g' "problem", i.e. we will wait for other > opinions if they ever appear. Until then I'll consider this thread > closed. "I cannot see anything wrong with such wording", versus it could be improved a bit to avoid confusion like that evidenced by this bug report. A user reading "...-N..." CAN easily misread it. Yes, MISread. There is not "anything wrong" with it, in the sense that if you read it right you won't misunderstand it. But that's a low bar, and Emacs can do better. To read it right you have to have grasped and recalled that N is a placeholder for an integer value, and in the context of that `-N' occurrence it is a placeholder for a negative integer. Understanding that that's the case, a reader will also correctly interpret the `-' as a minus sign (not, e.g., as a dash or hyphen or whatever else in ordinary text). MISunderstanding, a reader can easily not interpret the math expression `-N' as math at all. (And note that it's not within `...', so it's likely not taken as Lisp math. If we instead use `(abs N)', that makes clear - yes, as a reminder or a pay-attention note - that N is a number and the result of that expression is its absolute value. That clues a reader into the fact that N might be - in fact is in this case - negative. It's not about proving that the `-N' wording is guilty or defending its innocence in a court case. It's about making things a little clearer. It's about seeing it from the point of view of someone who might misread it.