bug#24229: 25.1; Can't set EPA program

bug#24229: 25.1; Can't set EPA program

[Nick Helm]

Setting epg-gpg-program has no effect if set using 
any other method than customize.

For instance, doing (setq epg-gpg-program "gpg1") in
init.el does not work. EPA ignores the program name
and fails with some cryptic message about no found
configurations.




In GNU Emacs 25.1.1 (x86_64-apple-darwin15.6.0, Carbon Version 157 AppKit 1404.47)
 of 2016-07-26 built on jupiter
Windowing system distributor 'Apple Inc.', version 10.11.6
Configured using:
 'configure --prefix=/usr/local/Cellar/emacs-mac/emacs-25.1-rc1-mac-5.90
 --enable-locallisppath=/usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp
 --infodir=/usr/local/Cellar/emacs-mac/emacs-25.1-rc1-mac-5.90/share/info/emacs
 --with-mac
 --enable-mac-app=/usr/local/Cellar/emacs-mac/emacs-25.1-rc1-mac-5.90'

Configured features:
NOTIFY ACL LIBXML2 ZLIB TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS

Important settings:
  value of $LANG: en_NZ.UTF-8
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: Text

Minor modes in effect:
  recentf-mode: t
  savehist-mode: t
  ido-ubiquitous-mode: t
  ido-everywhere: t
  global-eldoc-mode: t
  mac-mouse-wheel-mode: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t
  visual-line-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t

Recent messages:
Mark set
Creating customization items...
Creating group...
Creating group entries...done
Creating customization items ...done
Resetting customization items...done
Creating customization setup...done
Loading /Users/nick/.emacs.d/config/recentf/recentf.history...done
Cleaning up the recentf list...done (0 removed)
Mark set [2 times]

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bug#24229: 25.1; Can't set EPA program

[Noam Postavsky]

tag 24229 moreinfo
quit

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 12:58 AM, Nick Helm <nick@tenpoint.co.nz> wrote:
> Setting epg-gpg-program has no effect if set using
> any other method than customize.
>
> For instance, doing (setq epg-gpg-program "gpg1") in
> init.el does not work. EPA ignores the program name
> and fails with some cryptic message about no found
> configurations.

Please post the exact error message.

Does this also happen if you do

    emacs -Q --eval '(setq epg-gpg-program "gpg1")'

>
> In GNU Emacs 25.1.1 (x86_64-apple-darwin15.6.0, Carbon Version 157 AppKit 1404.47)
>  of 2016-07-26 built on jupiter
> Windowing system distributor 'Apple Inc.', version 10.11.6
> Configured using:
>  'configure --prefix=/usr/local/Cellar/emacs-mac/emacs-25.1-rc1-mac-5.90
>  --enable-locallisppath=/usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp
>  --infodir=/usr/local/Cellar/emacs-mac/emacs-25.1-rc1-mac-5.90/share/info/emacs
>  --with-mac
>  --enable-mac-app=/usr/local/Cellar/emacs-mac/emacs-25.1-rc1-mac-5.90'

bug#24229: 25.1; Can't set EPA program

[Nick Helm]

> On 16/08/2016, at 10:26 AM, Noam Postavsky <npostavs@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> 
>> Setting epg-gpg-program has no effect if set using
>> any other method than customize.
>> 
>> For instance, doing (setq epg-gpg-program "gpg1") in
>> init.el does not work. EPA ignores the program name
>> and fails with some cryptic message about no found
>> configurations.
> 
> Please post the exact error message.
> 
> Does this also happen if you do
> 
>    emacs -Q --eval '(setq epg-gpg-program "gpg1")'
> 

When trying to visit a symmetrically encrypted file, 
*Messages* gives me this:
epg-context—make: GPG error: "no usable configuration", OpenPGP

Yes, the error still occurs when launching with: 
emacs -Q —-eval '(setq epg-gpg-program "gpg1")'

However, it doesn’t occur when launching with:
emacs -Q --eval '(customize-save-variable (quote epg-gpg-program) "gpg1")'

A quick look at `epg-find-configuration' shows it only 
checks epg-gpg-program's saved-value symbol property; 
if the variable is set elsewhere it is ignored.

I can get around it by symlinking gpg>gpg1 but that
kinda defeats the purpose of having the variable.

Nick

bug#24229: 25.1; Can't set EPA program

[Daiki Ueno]

Nick Helm <nick@tenpoint.co.nz> writes:

> Yes, the error still occurs when launching with: 
> emacs -Q —-eval '(setq epg-gpg-program "gpg1")'
>
> However, it doesn’t occur when launching with:
> emacs -Q --eval '(customize-save-variable (quote epg-gpg-program) "gpg1")'
>
> A quick look at `epg-find-configuration' shows it only 
> checks epg-gpg-program's saved-value symbol property; 
> if the variable is set elsewhere it is ignored.
>
> I can get around it by symlinking gpg>gpg1 but that
> kinda defeats the purpose of having the variable.

It's an intended behaviour.  If you expect all the setup behind the
scene, you need to use the Customize interface instead of 'setq'.

This is similar to the mode variables.  See:
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Minor-Modes.html#Minor-Modes

The documentation of the variable could be improved anyway.

Regards,
-- 
Daiki Ueno

bug#24229: 25.1; Can't set EPA program

[Nick Helm]

> On 17/08/2016, at 7:38 AM, Daiki Ueno <ueno@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> Nick Helm <nick@tenpoint.co.nz> writes:
> 
>> Yes, the error still occurs when launching with: 
>> emacs -Q —-eval '(setq epg-gpg-program "gpg1")'
>> 
>> However, it doesn’t occur when launching with:
>> emacs -Q --eval '(customize-save-variable (quote epg-gpg-program) "gpg1")'
>> 
>> A quick look at `epg-find-configuration' shows it only 
>> checks epg-gpg-program's saved-value symbol property; 
>> if the variable is set elsewhere it is ignored.
>> 
>> I can get around it by symlinking gpg>gpg1 but that
>> kinda defeats the purpose of having the variable.
> 
> It's an intended behaviour.  If you expect all the setup behind the
> scene, you need to use the Customize interface instead of ‘setq'.

Yes, I gathered it is intended from the code, but that 
doesn't make it the right thing to do.

Why are users focred to use customize? There are many 
cases where Emacs enables the user to point to an 
external executable with setq. Here are a few I found 
in my init:

ispell-program-name
insert-directory-program
find-program
remote-shell-program
dired-chmod-program

None of these variables forces the use of customize. Why 
is epg-gpg-program such a special case?

> This is similar to the mode variables.  See:
> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Minor-Modes.html#Minor-Modes

I don't see a parallel between mode variables and a user 
option like epg-gpg-program. They are different things 
with different purposes. 

bug#24229: 25.1; Can't set EPA program

[Daiki Ueno]

Nick Helm <nick@tenpoint.co.nz> writes:

> None of these variables forces the use of customize. Why 
> is epg-gpg-program such a special case?

That is primarily because of the UX differences between three maintained
versions of GnuPG: 2.0, 2.1, and 1.x.  GnuPG 2.0 does not provide a way
to prompt passphrase without GUI, but others do.  Some people are fine
with 2.0 as they use Emacs on a graphical environment only, but other
people are not.

So, we really need to take account of user's intention here; check
whether the variable set by user or it is the default value.  With
'setq' it is not possible to have such distinction.

Regards,
-- 
Daiki Ueno

bug#24229: 25.1; Can't set EPA program

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Daiki Ueno <ueno@gnu.org>
> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 09:46:01 +0200
> Cc: "24229@debbugs.gnu.org" <24229@debbugs.gnu.org>
> 
> > None of these variables forces the use of customize. Why 
> > is epg-gpg-program such a special case?
> 
> That is primarily because of the UX differences between three maintained
> versions of GnuPG: 2.0, 2.1, and 1.x.  GnuPG 2.0 does not provide a way
> to prompt passphrase without GUI, but others do.  Some people are fine
> with 2.0 as they use Emacs on a graphical environment only, but other
> people are not.
> 
> So, we really need to take account of user's intention here; check
> whether the variable set by user or it is the default value.  With
> 'setq' it is not possible to have such distinction.

Doesn't Customize provide some functions that allow such a
distinction?  The Customize UI surely is able to tell when a variable
was "changed not through Customize", isn't that what you want?

Thanks.

bug#24229: 25.1; Can't set EPA program

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > That is primarily because of the UX differences between three maintained
  > versions of GnuPG: 2.0, 2.1, and 1.x.  GnuPG 2.0 does not provide a way
  > to prompt passphrase without GUI, but others do.  Some people are fine
  > with 2.0 as they use Emacs on a graphical environment only, but other
  > people are not.

This might be a symptom of a deeper problem.

Suppose you use GnuPG 2.0 under Emacs on a text terminal.
What interface does it use to read the passphrase?
Does it work ok?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.

bug#24229: 25.1; Can't set EPA program

[Nick Helm]

> On 17/08/2016, at 7:46 PM, Daiki Ueno <ueno@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> Nick Helm <nick@tenpoint.co.nz> writes:
> 
>> None of these variables forces the use of customize. Why 
>> is epg-gpg-program such a special case?
> 
> That is primarily because of the UX differences between three maintained
> versions of GnuPG: 2.0, 2.1, and 1.x.  GnuPG 2.0 does not provide a way
> to prompt passphrase without GUI, but others do.  Some people are fine
> with 2.0 as they use Emacs on a graphical environment only, but other
> people are not.
> 
> So, we really need to take account of user's intention here; check
> whether the variable set by user or it is the default value.  With
> 'setq' it is not possible to have such distinction.

I'm not sure I follow. If the user sets a variable, I think 
they're making their intention pretty clear – use the set 
value. 

If they know enough to set epg-gpg-program (using whatever 
mechanism), I'd argue they know enough to understand the 
capabilities of the program they're pointing to. Isn't it 
up to the user to know that gnupg 2.0 only supports 
GUI-based pinentry? 

But if the existing arrangement is important, can we at
least extend the test to determine if the variable has 
been set using either mechanism? Something like this might
work:

(not (equal (eval (car (get 'epg-gpg-program 'standard-value))) 
            (default-value 'epg-gpg-program)))

This returns true when the user sets the variable with 
setq or with customize (both current and future sessions). 
It doesn't detect the case where the user setqs one of the 
two possible standard-values ("gpg2" or "gpg") and the 
same (or both) executable(s) exists in the path, but that 
is the same as the default case anyway and is not a change 
from current behaviour.

Nick

bug#24229: 25.1; Can't set EPA program

[Daiki Ueno]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Daiki Ueno <ueno@gnu.org>
>> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 09:46:01 +0200
>> Cc: "24229@debbugs.gnu.org" <24229@debbugs.gnu.org>
>> 
>> > None of these variables forces the use of customize. Why 
>> > is epg-gpg-program such a special case?
>> 
>> That is primarily because of the UX differences between three maintained
>> versions of GnuPG: 2.0, 2.1, and 1.x.  GnuPG 2.0 does not provide a way
>> to prompt passphrase without GUI, but others do.  Some people are fine
>> with 2.0 as they use Emacs on a graphical environment only, but other
>> people are not.
>> 
>> So, we really need to take account of user's intention here; check
>> whether the variable set by user or it is the default value.  With
>> 'setq' it is not possible to have such distinction.
>
> Doesn't Customize provide some functions that allow such a
> distinction?  The Customize UI surely is able to tell when a variable
> was "changed not through Customize", isn't that what you want?

This is what we are currently doing, and the bug is saying that it
should be done without Customize.  It doesn't make sense to me though.

Nick Helm <nick@tenpoint.co.nz> writes:

> I'm not sure I follow. If the user sets a variable, I think 
> they're making their intention pretty clear – use the set 
> value. 
>
> If they know enough to set epg-gpg-program (using whatever 
> mechanism), I'd argue they know enough to understand the 
> capabilities of the program they're pointing to. Isn't it 
> up to the user to know that gnupg 2.0 only supports 
> GUI-based pinentry? 
>
> But if the existing arrangement is important, can we at
> least extend the test to determine if the variable has 
> been set using either mechanism? Something like this might
> work:
>
> (not (equal (eval (car (get 'epg-gpg-program 'standard-value))) 
>             (default-value 'epg-gpg-program)))

There seems to be some confusions here.
- The standard-value property is actually from Customize.
- The default-value function is to get the default value of buffer local
  variables.

So, It doesn't work as you expect.  I am really not sure why you insist
on using setq.  As far as I know, Customize is the recommended way to
set user options and provides more features like this.

Regards,
-- 
Daiki Ueno

bug#24229: 25.1; Can't set EPA program

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Daiki Ueno <ueno@gnu.org>
> Cc: nick@tenpoint.co.nz,  24229@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 09:14:27 +0200
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> So, we really need to take account of user's intention here; check
> >> whether the variable set by user or it is the default value.  With
> >> 'setq' it is not possible to have such distinction.
> >
> > Doesn't Customize provide some functions that allow such a
> > distinction?  The Customize UI surely is able to tell when a variable
> > was "changed not through Customize", isn't that what you want?
> 
> This is what we are currently doing, and the bug is saying that it
> should be done without Customize.  It doesn't make sense to me though.

What I meant is that Customize does have a way of telling that a value
was changed using setq, so evidently there's some infrastructure for
that which you could use.  Am I missing something?

bug#24229: 25.1; Can't set EPA program

[Daiki Ueno]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Daiki Ueno <ueno@gnu.org>
>> Cc: nick@tenpoint.co.nz,  24229@debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 09:14:27 +0200
>> 
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> 
>> >> So, we really need to take account of user's intention here; check
>> >> whether the variable set by user or it is the default value.  With
>> >> 'setq' it is not possible to have such distinction.
>> >
>> > Doesn't Customize provide some functions that allow such a
>> > distinction?  The Customize UI surely is able to tell when a variable
>> > was "changed not through Customize", isn't that what you want?
>> 
>> This is what we are currently doing, and the bug is saying that it
>> should be done without Customize.  It doesn't make sense to me though.
>
> What I meant is that Customize does have a way of telling that a value
> was changed using setq, so evidently there's some infrastructure for
> that which you could use.  Am I missing something?

Do you mean custom-variable-state or anything else?  The function just
compares a value with the default value.  In that case, we cannot
determine whether a user explicitly sets the variable to "gpg2", or the
default value "gpg2" is used.

If the former, we want to use "gpg2" binary anyway.  But if the latter
and "gpg2" is GnuPG 2.0, we want to try other versions when available.
This is not possible with that function.

Regards,
-- 
Daiki Ueno

bug#24229: 25.1; Can't set EPA program

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Daiki Ueno <ueno@gnu.org>
> Cc: nick@tenpoint.co.nz,  24229@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 17:08:03 +0200
> 
> > What I meant is that Customize does have a way of telling that a value
> > was changed using setq, so evidently there's some infrastructure for
> > that which you could use.  Am I missing something?
> 
> Do you mean custom-variable-state

Yes, I guess so.

> The function just compares a value with the default value.  In that
> case, we cannot determine whether a user explicitly sets the
> variable to "gpg2", or the default value "gpg2" is used.

You mean, using setq to set the value that is identical to the default
is somehow different from using the default unchanged?  Isn't that
confusing for users?

bug#24229: 25.1; Can't set EPA program

[Glenn Morris]

It's not uncommon for the doc of Emacs variables to say:

  Setting this variable directly does not have any effect;
  instead use \\[customize] or <some setter function>.

IMO that's all that's needed here too.

bug#24229: 25.1; Can't set EPA program

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,  nick@tenpoint.co.nz,  24229@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 11:46:52 -0400
> 
> It's not uncommon for the doc of Emacs variables to say:
> 
>   Setting this variable directly does not have any effect;
>   instead use \\[customize] or <some setter function>.
> 
> IMO that's all that's needed here too.

If there's no better way, yes.

bug#24229: 25.1; Can't set EPA program

[Daiki Ueno]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>
>> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, nick@tenpoint.co.nz,
>> 24229@debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 11:46:52 -0400
>> 
>> It's not uncommon for the doc of Emacs variables to say:
>> 
>>   Setting this variable directly does not have any effect;
>>   instead use \\[customize] or <some setter function>.
>> 
>> IMO that's all that's needed here too.
>
> If there's no better way, yes.

As I really don't have any better idea, I have took the Glenn's
suggestion.

Regards,
-- 
Daiki Ueno

bug#24229: 25.1; Can't set EPA program

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Daiki Ueno <ueno@gnu.org>
> Cc: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>,  nick@tenpoint.co.nz,  24229-done@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 11:22:42 +0200
> 
> >> It's not uncommon for the doc of Emacs variables to say:
> >> 
> >>   Setting this variable directly does not have any effect;
> >>   instead use \\[customize] or <some setter function>.
> >> 
> >> IMO that's all that's needed here too.
> >
> > If there's no better way, yes.
> 
> As I really don't have any better idea, I have took the Glenn's
> suggestion.

In that case, please also document the special meaning of setting the
variable to the same value as the default.  I think this special
meaning is not self-evident without some explicit documentation.

Thanks.