From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Xah Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: What does 'run' do in cperl-mode? Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com Message-ID: <880cfe65-c525-46f7-a2e7-f76aa1168015@i20g2000prf.googlegroups.com> References: <0ded5ecd-f5f6-4a8e-9d19-f61bf0401022@v39g2000pro.googlegroups.com> <86hcad9ar4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <0bb45e96-f9f3-4451-a457-004bb5930c76@p10g2000prf.googlegroups.com> <927b0c4a-3de2-4be5-b86a-7ffacc4d718e@v1g2000pra.googlegroups.com> <88821130-f989-49ac-b8b1-e3cb2f5c5271@1g2000pre.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1217317246 8711 80.91.229.12 (29 Jul 2008 07:40:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:40:46 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 29 09:41:35 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KNjpr-0008FP-Q1 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 09:41:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45232 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KNjox-0004GE-Ft for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 03:40:35 -0400 Original-Path: news.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews.google.com!i20g2000prf.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 181 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.6.97.120 Original-X-Trace: posting.google.com 1217316322 15230 127.0.0.1 (29 Jul 2008 07:25:22 GMT) Original-X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:25:22 +0000 (UTC) Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: i20g2000prf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=24.6.97.120; posting-account=bRPKjQoAAACxZsR8_VPXCX27T2YcsyMA User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10_4_11; en) AppleWebKit/525.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.2 Safari/525.22, gzip(gfe), gzip(gfe) Original-Xref: news.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:160666 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:56014 Archived-At: On Jul 28, 8:32 pm, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From:XahLee > > Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:54:35 -0700 (PDT) > > > After all, many emacs developers read here i was told. > > Most of them don't, actually. Whoever told you otherwise was wrong. thanks for setting this correct. =2E.. wait, but it was you who told me so here few months back i think. But nevermind. :) > And your ``problems'' are actually features as far as most Emacs > developers are concerned. The fact that Emacs behaves almost > identically on all platforms is considered by most Emacs developers > (and by many users) a virtue, not a disadvantage. Lennart is in > minority here. I don't see my suggestion for emacs to adapt the =E2=80=9CAlt+=E2=80=B9key= =E2=80=BA=E2=80=9D notation should be classified as a =E2=80=9Cfeature=E2=80=9D. Between Feature and Bu= g, i'd say it's a bug, if forced. Remember, in my article =E2=80=9CEmacs's M-=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA Notation vs Alt+=E2=80=B9key=E2=80= =BA Notation=E2=80=9D http://xahlee.org/emacs/modernization_meta_key.html The main reasons i gave are: =E2=80=A2 Universally understood =E2=80=A2 Identical To Key's Label =E2=80=A2 Meta is Alt in practice =E2=80=A2 Keyboards don't have Meta key today So i consider it more as bug report now i think about it. Why? Because emacs failed to update itself when its keyboard under lisp machines become obsolete. As i mentioned, the computing industry changes relative fast. (tech geekers wants to think: Fashion! FAD! No, stop that. Sure there's fashion and fad, for example i consider eXtreme Programing, Programming Patterns, Universal Modeling Lang, fashion and fads that does us no good. But we are not talking about fahsion and fad here. Also, what's you consider fashion and fad may actually turns out fundamental in human progress. For example, the commercializing of the web, with estores and ebay and paypal and all, in the late 1990s. Many hardcore techgeekers, will admantly shout STUPIDITY. Same has been said about blogging, css, javascript, cookies, and today many tech geekers hold contempt for things like youtube. (actually i wrote about this yesterday in comp.lang.lisp, here's a excerpt: (as a example of a characteristic thought pattern of these people... one can image they are the type of guys who said computers should never adopt the mouse (~1990), GUI (~1990), the web should not commercialize (~1995), web should not have cookies (~1997), css or javascript (~1998), source code should never have syntax coloring (mid 1990s), blogging is for teens (early 2000s), Wikipedia is for morons (~2004). In their quite strong opinion, these type of features or changes are a waste of computing cycle, fad, or for kids or dumbing down society, when these things were in their early days and their future is not certain.) ) ) > And your ``problems'' are actually features as far as most Emacs > developers are concerned. The fact that Emacs behaves almost > identically on all platforms is considered by most Emacs developers > (and by many users) a virtue, not a disadvantage. Lennart is in > minority here. In my suggestion, i suggest that emacs should one single version that works on any OS with the same emacs-UI. (as opposed to, one conforming to Mac OS X, another for MS Windows.) You perhaps misread me there. Yes, Lennart is a minority. I dunno what's his prob. Oh, another point i wanted to make before, was that OpenSource software often takes a 5 to 10 years lag of adopting features from the commercial wold. Syntax coloring, for example, i think by 1995 is in every commercial software. (when did it came to emacs?) Mouse support... Font ... Unicode ... GUI support ... I'm actually don't have solid historical facts for the above points as i liked... but anyway i just want to write instead of like doing 10 years of research and post 1 article and got overflooded. well the point is that, many of these features often gets laughed and sneered at by some hardcore guys. But in the end, the goodness, as determined by society, every body, dummies or not dummies, decides what becomes the norm. So, linux started to adopt just about Windows UI wholesale in 1998, with, of course, wide decryment from tech geekers on how it shouldn't be, how it is dumbed down. Today, after 10 years, of various distros and Lindows etc trumpeting on how easy it is to use, linux is still struggling to enter much of market share with Windows or Mac, but now you'll encounter hardcore tech geekers who will break his head in telling you how EASY linux is to use now, that all =E2=80=9Cdifficult=E2=80=9D is in the past only. (he d= reams!) Ok, the point i want to make, is that make of these tech geeekr's attitude, is just wrong. Not rational. Granted, sometimes i, too, often sneer and mistake important something to be fad. For exampl, when Instant Messaging just began in 1999, by such as AOL. I was like, never really thought about it but if asked, i think it's for teens. Well, one coworker asked me to sign on at work, and i was rather displeased about it but did, because it was to discuss work related issues. (i'm in CA, she's in KS) Then after the initial month of using it with some thought of distaste, i find it's quite fun. I mean, you can chat to ohter girls. Never the less, i didnt think too high of IM. Still consider it some type of teen fad i wouldn't want to associate myself with. But after a few years, say by 2004, or now 2008, you do realize that IM in fact has made a significant social impact. I'm no socialologist by training, but if you ask a sociologist who studies technology's role in human history, i'll bet IM is one of the significant tech that had made impact in how we human animals lived or worked. okie, i think i started to write too much. better stop now. So back to emacs.... there was CUA mode. I don't know the history of the mode, but it is my guess that mode has been floating out there for quite some time before it is part of emacs. I think there must be huge resistance back then, even today, the use of it is somewhat controversial, and geekers are shy to admit they use it because that somehow makes them =E2=80=9CMicrosoft Kiddies=E2=80=9D. lookking at the CUA mode source, i see it started in 1997. When is it bundled in emacs? Let's say in 2000. Now, when is copy cut paste using xcv keys standard across mac and windows? prob around 1995 with the popularity of Windows 3.x. From 1995 to 2000 is like 5 years. Took emcas 5 years to adapt, yet not even complete because it's not default but just Optional (very extreemly stupid). y'know, unix geeks and hardcore geeks like to have options. one hundred options. Like in unix tools, you have 100 options, each overstep another. In Window Manafers under X before KDE/Gnome days, each has one million options. It's all about setting up, learning, experimenting, so you are not a Microsoft Kiddie. Ok, perhaps a summary about my points. One is that tech geek often think irrationally. They didn't analyze things from a broad, long term social perspective, and they have a tendency to prefer the nature nature of =E2=80=9Chard to use=E2=80=9D, because that intuitively makes the= m more manly. The other point is that if you research the adaption of GUI features or practices in commercial and free software world, you'll see that the free camp is rather slow in 5 to 10 years. If a free soft kept out and didn't adapt gui things, it basically falls out of use and becomes obsolete. Contrast firefox vs lynx. Emacs in fact is a good example. Nobody uses it. lol. Yet we still have tech geekers here wnts to kill it completely. alright, i typed fast. this post is maybe 50 min but now it flies out sans cleanup. I have written much better about all these points actually, but citing my website gets tired and ignored. Better answer question on person to person basis, is what am trying to do. Xah =E2=88=91 http://xahlee.org/ =E2=98=84