list indentation

list indentation

[cezar]

Hello,

  I am using org-mode version 5.17a and I sometimes need to write some 
details on a task like:

** TODO something to be done
   notes about this task
   come here and they include a list
   - blah
   - blah
     And another list
     - foo
     - foo
       And one more list
       - bar
       - bar

  Now, this is not what it should look like !
  The lists need to be aligned properly.

  Am I making any sense ?

Regards,
Cezar

Re: list indentation

[Hugo Schmitt]

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Hi.
The problem with your example, afaik, is that 'And another list' is just the
rest of the text that starts at the last 'blah'.
Shouldn't 'And another list' be a header? Maybe you want something like
this?

** TODO something to be done
  notes about this task
  come here and they include a list
  - blah
  - blah
*** and another list
    - foo
    - foo
*** And one more list
    - bar
    - bar

HTH,
Hugo

On Feb 7, 2008 4:58 PM, cezar <cezar@mixandgo.ro> wrote:

> Hello,
>
>  I am using org-mode version 5.17a and I sometimes need to write some
> details on a task like:
>
> ** TODO something to be done
>   notes about this task
>   come here and they include a list
>   - blah
>   - blah
>     And another list
>     - foo
>     - foo
>       And one more list
>       - bar
>       - bar
>
>  Now, this is not what it should look like !
>  The lists need to be aligned properly.
>
>  Am I making any sense ?
>
> Regards,
> Cezar
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>

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Re: list indentation

[Carsten Dominik]

On Feb 7, 2008, at 7:58 PM, cezar wrote:

> Hello,
>
>  I am using org-mode version 5.17a and I sometimes need to write some
> details on a task like:
>
> ** TODO something to be done
>   notes about this task
>   come here and they include a list
>   - blah
>   - blah
>     And another list
>     - foo
>     - foo
>       And one more list
>       - bar
>       - bar
>
>  Now, this is not what it should look like !
>  The lists need to be aligned properly.


Hi Cezar,

Org-mode tries its best to guess what you mean and then
do it.  However, it is not a true mind reader, and it cannot know
how you intend your lists to be structured.  This structure you
show is valid and might just as well be what you mean.

However, Org-mode helps you to create the lists either way.
What you probably did is (I am guessing here):

     - type "And another list"
     - press RET to get a new line
     - press TAB to indent, Org assumes that you want to continue
       text as *part* of he current item.
     - type "-" to make a new item
     - press TAB in the hope that the line would be outdented
       to match your intended structure.  Bummer.  Org keeps
       the structure because it assumes by setting the indentation,
       this is what you mean.

What you could have done
     - type "And another list"
     - press RET to get a new line
     - type "-" to make a new item
     - press TAB to indent, now org-mode matches up the "-"
       with the previous ones, because before indenting the line
       you told it that you intended it to be an item in time.

What you really should have done
     - type "And another list"
     - M-RET to create the next item.

Hope this helps

- Carsten




>
>
>  Am I making any sense ?
>
> Regards,
> Cezar
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: list indentation

[cezar]

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 10:24:39 +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:

> On Feb 7, 2008, at 7:58 PM, cezar wrote:
> 
>> Hello,
>>
>>  I am using org-mode version 5.17a and I sometimes need to write some
>> details on a task like:
>>
>> ** TODO something to be done
>>   notes about this task
>>   come here and they include a list
>>   - blah
>>   - blah
>>     And another list
>>     - foo
>>     - foo
>>       And one more list
>>       - bar
>>       - bar
>>
>>  Now, this is not what it should look like ! The lists need to be
>>  aligned properly.
> 
> 
> Hi Cezar,
> 
> Org-mode tries its best to guess what you mean and then do it.  However,
> it is not a true mind reader, and it cannot know how you intend your
> lists to be structured.  This structure you show is valid and might just
> as well be what you mean.
> 
> However, Org-mode helps you to create the lists either way. What you
> probably did is (I am guessing here):
> 
>      - type "And another list"
>      - press RET to get a new line
>      - press TAB to indent, Org assumes that you want to continue
>        text as *part* of he current item.
>      - type "-" to make a new item
>      - press TAB in the hope that the line would be outdented
>        to match your intended structure.  Bummer.  Org keeps the
>        structure because it assumes by setting the indentation, this is
>        what you mean.
> 
> What you could have done
>      - type "And another list"
>      - press RET to get a new line
>      - type "-" to make a new item
>      - press TAB to indent, now org-mode matches up the "-"
>        with the previous ones, because before indenting the line you
>        told it that you intended it to be an item in time.
> 
> What you really should have done
>      - type "And another list"
>      - M-RET to create the next item.
> 
> Hope this helps
> 
> - Carsten
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>
>>  Am I making any sense ?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Cezar
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ Emacs-orgmode mailing
>> list
>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ Emacs-orgmode mailing
> list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

My problem is that "Another list" is indented (because it's under a list 
element row). So what I'd want is org-mode to know that/when the list 
ends which is at the end of the line (maybe use a dot)

Thank you for explaining.

Cezar

Re: Re: list indentation

[Carsten Dominik]

I don't quite understand yet what you mean.  Please try to explain  
again.

- Carsten

On Feb 9, 2008, at 1:29 AM, cezar wrote:

> On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 10:24:39 +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
>
>> On Feb 7, 2008, at 7:58 PM, cezar wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I am using org-mode version 5.17a and I sometimes need to write some
>>> details on a task like:
>>>
>>> ** TODO something to be done
>>>  notes about this task
>>>  come here and they include a list
>>>  - blah
>>>  - blah
>>>    And another list
>>>    - foo
>>>    - foo
>>>      And one more list
>>>      - bar
>>>      - bar
>>>
>>> Now, this is not what it should look like ! The lists need to be
>>> aligned properly.
>>
>>
>> Hi Cezar,
>>
>> Org-mode tries its best to guess what you mean and then do it.   
>> However,
>> it is not a true mind reader, and it cannot know how you intend your
>> lists to be structured.  This structure you show is valid and might  
>> just
>> as well be what you mean.
>>
>> However, Org-mode helps you to create the lists either way. What you
>> probably did is (I am guessing here):
>>
>>     - type "And another list"
>>     - press RET to get a new line
>>     - press TAB to indent, Org assumes that you want to continue
>>       text as *part* of he current item.
>>     - type "-" to make a new item
>>     - press TAB in the hope that the line would be outdented
>>       to match your intended structure.  Bummer.  Org keeps the
>>       structure because it assumes by setting the indentation, this  
>> is
>>       what you mean.
>>
>> What you could have done
>>     - type "And another list"
>>     - press RET to get a new line
>>     - type "-" to make a new item
>>     - press TAB to indent, now org-mode matches up the "-"
>>       with the previous ones, because before indenting the line you
>>       told it that you intended it to be an item in time.
>>
>> What you really should have done
>>     - type "And another list"
>>     - M-RET to create the next item.
>>
>> Hope this helps
>>
>> - Carsten
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Am I making any sense ?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Cezar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Emacs-orgmode  
>>> mailing
>>> list
>>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ Emacs-orgmode mailing
>> list
>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
> My problem is that "Another list" is indented (because it's under a  
> list
> element row). So what I'd want is org-mode to know that/when the list
> ends which is at the end of the line (maybe use a dot)
>
> Thank you for explaining.
>
> Cezar
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: list indentation

[cezar]

On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 08:17:10 +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:

> I don't quite understand yet what you mean.  Please try to explain
> again.
> 
> - Carsten
> 
> On Feb 9, 2008, at 1:29 AM, cezar wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 10:24:39 +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 7, 2008, at 7:58 PM, cezar wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> I am using org-mode version 5.17a and I sometimes need to write some
>>>> details on a task like:
>>>>
>>>> ** TODO something to be done
>>>>  notes about this task
>>>>  come here and they include a list
>>>>  - blah
>>>>  - blah
>>>>    And another list
>>>>    - foo
>>>>    - foo
>>>>      And one more list
>>>>      - bar
>>>>      - bar
>>>>
>>>> Now, this is not what it should look like ! The lists need to be
>>>> aligned properly.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Cezar,
>>>
>>> Org-mode tries its best to guess what you mean and then do it.
>>> However,
>>> it is not a true mind reader, and it cannot know how you intend your
>>> lists to be structured.  This structure you show is valid and might
>>> just
>>> as well be what you mean.
>>>
>>> However, Org-mode helps you to create the lists either way. What you
>>> probably did is (I am guessing here):
>>>
>>>     - type "And another list"
>>>     - press RET to get a new line
>>>     - press TAB to indent, Org assumes that you want to continue
>>>       text as *part* of he current item.
>>>     - type "-" to make a new item
>>>     - press TAB in the hope that the line would be outdented
>>>       to match your intended structure.  Bummer.  Org keeps the
>>>       structure because it assumes by setting the indentation, this
>>> is
>>>       what you mean.
>>>
>>> What you could have done
>>>     - type "And another list"
>>>     - press RET to get a new line
>>>     - type "-" to make a new item
>>>     - press TAB to indent, now org-mode matches up the "-"
>>>       with the previous ones, because before indenting the line you
>>>       told it that you intended it to be an item in time.
>>>
>>> What you really should have done
>>>     - type "And another list"
>>>     - M-RET to create the next item.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps
>>>
>>> - Carsten
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Am I making any sense ?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Cezar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ Emacs-orgmode mailing
>>>> list
>>>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Emacs-orgmode mailing
>>> list
>>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>> My problem is that "Another list" is indented (because it's under a
>> list
>> element row). So what I'd want is org-mode to know that/when the list
>> ends which is at the end of the line (maybe use a dot)
>>
>> Thank you for explaining.
>>
>> Cezar
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ Emacs-orgmode mailing
>> list
>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ Emacs-orgmode mailing
> list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

I have this TODO:

** TODO Meeting with John Doe
   regarding the job interview
   some skills they would like
   - html
   - css
   - unix
     address: 102 str. Blah foo, CA
     phone: 1111111

I would like to somehow make org aware that the list ends after "- unix" 
and that what follows are not part of the list, meaning pressing TAB 
should not move the cursor under "u" form unix.

Regards,
Cezar

Re: Re: list indentation

[Eddward DeVilla]

On Feb 9, 2008 1:26 AM, cezar <cezar@mixandgo.ro> wrote:
> I have this TODO:
>
> ** TODO Meeting with John Doe
>    regarding the job interview
>    some skills they would like
>    - html
>    - css
>    - unix
>      address: 102 str. Blah foo, CA
>      phone: 1111111
>
> I would like to somehow make org aware that the list ends after "- unix"
> and that what follows are not part of the list, meaning pressing TAB
> should not move the cursor under "u" form unix.

This is a tough one.  Sometimes I want the behavior you describe.
Sometimes I want the behavior org-mode has.  For me it's not so must
the that I care about tab indenting right.  Org can't be a mind
reader.  It's that it may undo your indent if you if you do M-q and
org disagrees with you.  Maybe if there was a way to delimit the list
like:

* this is the stuff
  It all happens here:
  -----
  - lock
  - stock
  - and barrel
  -----
  It's done now.

I choose the 5 -'s because it matches with the horizontal bar, just
indented.  (btw, could org-mode maybe take a line with 5 -'s and
extend it to the width of the window when displaying in the buffer?
Just an idea I'd use but don't really need.)  I don't know if it's the
right thing, and I'm guessing it may not be possible anyhow (with out
a lot of work).

Also I don't know what the correct behavior should be for:

* Slapstick
  -----
  - Stooges
    -----
    - Moe
    - Larry
    - Curly
    - Shemp
    - Joe
    -----

  - Marx
    -----
    - Groucho
    - Harpo
    - Chico
    - Gummo
    - Zeppo
    -----
  -----

I know what I'd like, but I don't know if it's practical.  Another
possibility is to do like rst and require a blank line when ending a
list entry.  Again, I'm not sure that is reasonably workable in
org-mode.

Edd

Re: Re: list indentation

[William Henney]

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Hi Eddward

On Feb 9, 2008 11:02 AM, Eddward DeVilla <eddward@gmail.com> wrote:
> I know what I'd like, but I don't know if it's practical.  Another
> possibility is to do like rst and require a blank line when ending a
> list entry.  Again, I'm not sure that is reasonably workable in
> org-mode.
>

But that would mean that org would have to disallow multiple
paragraphs in one list item, which is currently allowed.

I think the only way to get what you want is to have distinct markers
for starting and ending the lists. Something like

**** Proposal for a more explicit list syntax
     An attempt to provide more robust indentation for lists with
     follow-on text.
     /-
     - Here is a list item
     - Here is another item.

       This item has multiple paras.
     - And a third item
       /+
       + With an embedded sub-list
       + Second sub-item
       +/
       Final part of third item
     -/
     And here the lists have ended, so indentation returns to
     normal.


One thing I'm not too happy about with this proposal is that the - in
the start list marker (/-) does not line up with the other -'s. An
alternative could be something like

-\
- one
- two
-/

or (if unicode is allowed) even

-↓
- one
- two
-↑

What do people think? The interaction with org-outdent-item would be tricky.

Cheers

Will

-- 

  Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica,
  Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia

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Re: list indentation

[cezar]

On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 15:45:53 -0600, William Henney wrote:

> Hi Eddward
> 
> On Feb 9, 2008 11:02 AM, Eddward DeVilla <eddward@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I know what I'd like, but I don't know if it's practical.  Another
>> possibility is to do like rst and require a blank line when ending a
>> list entry.  Again, I'm not sure that is reasonably workable in
>> org-mode.
>>
>>
> But that would mean that org would have to disallow multiple paragraphs
> in one list item, which is currently allowed.
> 
> I think the only way to get what you want is to have distinct markers
> for starting and ending the lists. Something like
> 
> **** Proposal for a more explicit list syntax
>      An attempt to provide more robust indentation for lists with
>      follow-on text.
>      /-
>      - Here is a list item
>      - Here is another item.
> 
>        This item has multiple paras.
>      - And a third item
>        /+
>        + With an embedded sub-list
>        + Second sub-item
>        +/
>        Final part of third item
>      -/
>      And here the lists have ended, so indentation returns to normal.
> 
> 
> One thing I'm not too happy about with this proposal is that the - in
> the start list marker (/-) does not line up with the other -'s. An
> alternative could be something like
> 
> -\
> - one
> - two
> -/
> 
> or (if unicode is allowed) even
> 
> -↓
> - one
> - two
> -↑
> 
> What do people think? The interaction with org-outdent-item would be
> tricky.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Will

I think a "terminator" would be better for the last list element. 
Something like a blank line. I am not sure, just throwing ideas around.

Regards,
Cezar

Re: Re: list indentation

[William Henney]

On Feb 9, 2008 4:17 PM, cezar <cezar@mixandgo.ro> wrote:
> I think a "terminator" would be better for the last list element.
> Something like a blank line. I am not sure, just throwing ideas around.

But how would one distinguish a blank line that ends a list from a
blank line that separates paragraphs within a list item?

You are right, though, that it is the end-of-list marker that is
important. On reflection, it seems to me that a beginning-of-list
marker is not necessary.

Cheers

Will

-- 

  Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica,
  Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia

Re: Re: list indentation

[Eddward DeVilla]

On Feb 9, 2008 4:50 PM, William Henney <whenney@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 9, 2008 4:17 PM, cezar <cezar@mixandgo.ro> wrote:
> > I think a "terminator" would be better for the last list element.
> > Something like a blank line. I am not sure, just throwing ideas around.
>
> But how would one distinguish a blank line that ends a list from a
> blank line that separates paragraphs within a list item?
>
> You are right, though, that it is the end-of-list marker that is
> important. On reflection, it seems to me that a beginning-of-list
> marker is not necessary.

That's why I suggested -----.  It's really only needed as a
terminator, but I like symmetry.  I'd like to be able have something
at the top, but it should not be required.  Really, the terminator
should not be required unless you need it to tell org to end the list,
so we don't break current files.

Edd

Re: list indentation

[cezar]

On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 16:50:04 -0600, William Henney wrote:

> On Feb 9, 2008 4:17 PM, cezar <cezar@mixandgo.ro> wrote:
>> I think a "terminator" would be better for the last list element.
>> Something like a blank line. I am not sure, just throwing ideas around.
> 
> But how would one distinguish a blank line that ends a list from a blank
> line that separates paragraphs within a list item?
> 
> You are right, though, that it is the end-of-list marker that is
> important. On reflection, it seems to me that a beginning-of-list marker
> is not necessary.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Will

How common is a blank line in a list item ?
I'd say it's more common for a blank line to end a list item.

Regards,
Cezar

Re: Re: list indentation

[William Henney]

Hi Eddward

On Feb 9, 2008 5:26 PM, Eddward DeVilla <eddward@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 9, 2008 4:50 PM, William Henney <whenney@gmail.com> wrote:
> > You are right, though, that it is the end-of-list marker that is
> > important. On reflection, it seems to me that a beginning-of-list
> > marker is not necessary.
>
> That's why I suggested -----.  It's really only needed as a
> terminator, but I like symmetry.  I'd like to be able have something
> at the top, but it should not be required.

But it causes problems to allow the same marker to be used at the
start and end. For instance, consider the following:

-----
- item one
- item two
----- <- point is on this line

When I hit TAB, how is org to know whether the "-----" is supposed to
start a new sublist (and so should be indented 3 spaces) or is meant
to end the preceding list (and so should not be indented)?

That is why I proposed that IF we are to have both start and end
markers, THEN they need to be distinct. However, I now think that it
would be better to just have end markers. Personally, I would prefer
"-/" for the XMLish feel. My objections to "-----" are

1. It is hard to remember (was it 5 dashes or 4?)
2. It is a pain to type when you have the "tex" input method turned on
3. It conflicts with existing usage (sec 12.6.5 of the manual)

   * A line consisting of only dashes, and at least 5 of them, will be
     exported as a horizontal line (`<hr/>' in HTML).

> Really, the terminator
> should not be required unless you need it to tell org to end the list,
> so we don't break current files.
>

Agreed.

Cheers

Will


-- 

  Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica,
  Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia

Re: Re: list indentation

[William Henney]

Hi Cezar

On Feb 9, 2008 5:41 PM, cezar <cezar@mixandgo.ro> wrote:
> How common is a blank line in a list item ?
> I'd say it's more common for a blank line to end a list item.

I agree that multi-paragraph list items are not that common. A quick
random sampling of my own org files indicates about 3 instances per
1000 lines (so about 70 in total - wow, I have over 23,000 lines of
org files!). However, the point is that they do exist and up to now
have been (at least implicitly) encouraged.

I think that, all else being equal, it is best to maintain backwards
compatibility. On the other hand, if the majority decision were to
outlaw multi-paragraph list items, then I wouldn't be unduly upset. A
list item that complicated should probably have been a separate
subheading anyway.

Cheers

Will



-- 

  Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica,
  Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia

Re: Re: list indentation

[Cezar Halmagean]

I guess you are right. I should start using subheadings :)

Regards,
Cezar

"William Henney" <whenney@gmail.com> writes:

> Hi Cezar
>
> On Feb 9, 2008 5:41 PM, cezar <cezar@mixandgo.ro> wrote:
>> How common is a blank line in a list item ?
>> I'd say it's more common for a blank line to end a list item.
>
> I agree that multi-paragraph list items are not that common. A quick
> random sampling of my own org files indicates about 3 instances per
> 1000 lines (so about 70 in total - wow, I have over 23,000 lines of
> org files!). However, the point is that they do exist and up to now
> have been (at least implicitly) encouraged.
>
> I think that, all else being equal, it is best to maintain backwards
> compatibility. On the other hand, if the majority decision were to
> outlaw multi-paragraph list items, then I wouldn't be unduly upset. A
> list item that complicated should probably have been a separate
> subheading anyway.
>
> Cheers
>
> Will
>
>
>
> -- 
>
>   Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica,
>   Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia
>

-- 
Simplify, simplify, simplify. -- Henry David Thoreau
Simplify.                     -- Wendy McElroy

Re: Re: list indentation

[William Henney]

Hi Cezar

On Feb 9, 2008 7:33 PM, Cezar Halmagean <cezar@mixandgo.com> wrote:
>
> I guess you are right. I should start using subheadings :)
>

No, I meant that *I* should have been using subheadings instead of
multi-paragraph list items :)

Anyhow, I just found this in the manual:

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Empty lines are part of
the previous item, so you can have several paragraphs in one item.  If
you would like an empty line to terminate all currently open plain
lists, configure the variable `org-empty-line-terminates-plain-lists'.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Have you tried configuring that variable? Maybe it does what you want.

Cheers

Will

-- 

  Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica,
  Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia

Re: Re: list indentation

[Eddward DeVilla]

On Feb 9, 2008 7:09 PM, William Henney <whenney@gmail.com> wrote:
> But it causes problems to allow the same marker to be used at the
> start and end. For instance, consider the following:
>
> -----
> - item one
> - item two
> ----- <- point is on this line
>
> When I hit TAB, how is org to know whether the "-----" is supposed to
> start a new sublist (and so should be indented 3 spaces) or is meant
> to end the preceding list (and so should not be indented)?

True.  I wasn't counting on tab to always get that right.  I usually
hit M-RET for a sibling entry and M-RET M-right for a sub list  I was
counting on the indent to determine if it was a sub-list.  Otherwise,
it doesn't matter if it's and end or beginning, at least in my mind.
Once I set an indent, I'd like it to stay though.  I have folding
lists, so I probably don't appreciate some of the issues.  When I hit
tab on an existing item, it folds or unfolds.

> That is why I proposed that IF we are to have both start and end
> markers, THEN they need to be distinct. However, I now think that it
> would be better to just have end markers. Personally, I would prefer
> "-/" for the XMLish feel. My objections to "-----" are

I'm afraid you won't win me over with xml.  I'm not fond of it.

> 1. It is hard to remember (was it 5 dashes or 4?)

I'd say five or more and left org format it.  But then again, I'm not
really tied to it.  The hline was my first guess at something.  It
puts it in a box.  I kind of like that.  I'll probably find a case
where I wouldn't though.

> 2. It is a pain to type when you have the "tex" input method turned on

I can't argue that.  I've never used the tex input method.

> 3. It conflicts with existing usage (sec 12.6.5 of the manual)
>
>    * A line consisting of only dashes, and at least 5 of them, will be
>      exported as a horizontal line (`<hr/>' in HTML).

Actually, I was thinking of having an indented hline to box in the
list, but again that may be plain wrong.  Also, I thought the hline
had to start at the beginning of the line.  My mistake.

In any case, I'm just trying to come up with something  that does the
job but is not an eye sore in the org buffer.  I'm looking for
something that visually looks like a natural footer or terminator in
plain text.  (And a footer ought to be able to be preceeded by a
header.)  I know the significance of the '/' in xml, but visually, it
doesn't look right to my eyes.  Aside from the meaning in xml code, it
does say end-of-list to me.  If anything, it seems to connect the
preceeding and proceeding text, like this/that.  The dashes draw a
dividing line.

Edd

Re: Re: list indentation

[William Henney]

On Feb 9, 2008 9:55 PM, Eddward DeVilla <eddward@gmail.com> wrote:
> In any case, I'm just trying to come up with something  that does the
> job but is not an eye sore in the org buffer.  I'm looking for
> something that visually looks like a natural footer or terminator in
> plain text.  (And a footer ought to be able to be preceeded by a
> header.)  I know the significance of the '/' in xml, but visually, it
> doesn't look right to my eyes.  Aside from the meaning in xml code, it
> does say end-of-list to me.  If anything, it seems to connect the
> preceeding and proceeding text, like this/that.  The dashes draw a
> dividing line.

How about "-." ?

Will

-- 

  Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica,
  Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia

Re: Re: list indentation

[Eddward DeVilla]

On Feb 9, 2008 10:47 PM, William Henney <whenney@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 9, 2008 9:55 PM, Eddward DeVilla <eddward@gmail.com> wrote:
> > In any case, I'm just trying to come up with something  that does the
> > job but is not an eye sore in the org buffer.  I'm looking for
> > something that visually looks like a natural footer or terminator in
> > plain text.  (And a footer ought to be able to be preceeded by a
> > header.)  I know the significance of the '/' in xml, but visually, it
> > doesn't look right to my eyes.  Aside from the meaning in xml code, it
> > does say end-of-list to me.  If anything, it seems to connect the
> > preceeding and proceeding text, like this/that.  The dashes draw a
> > dividing line.
>
> How about "-." ?

Better.  Still kind of cryptic, but more subtle.  Actually, since
that's all that's on the line, it really doesn't matter what it is.
Font lock can hide it or gray it out.  It could look like a blank line
without the ambiguity.

Edd

Re: Re: list indentation

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi Everyone,

I am personally not fond of separators, and we must be sure what
their purpose is.  As a means of terminating a list for export
and folding, you can use empty lines when setting the variable
`org-empty-line-terminates-plain-lists' discovered by Will.
Or any text that is no linger indented behind the bullet marker.

But if I understand correctly, this is really about indentation and
about M-q paragraph wrapping.

I have thought about how to make aragraph wrapping to respect the
indentation of a line after a plain list item and failed.  I cannot
figure it out.

For paragraph wrapping we would really need a separator, and then we
would need to add this separator to the regular expressions in
`paragraph-start' and `paragraph-separate', obscure pieces of the
Emacs formatting which do not work really consistent between different
commands fill-paragraph and fill-region).  EIther that, or I am not
really able to comprehend how this works.

About indentation, there are other possible conventions one could use.
Right now, TAB will indent a line under a plain list item to beyond
the item bullet.  Independent of the current indentation.  So it will
indent lines with low indentation, and outdent lines with too large
indentations.

One could have different conventions.  For example, we could do this:
In the line after a plain list item:
- when the indentation is 0 or when the line is empty, make TAB indent
   to under the line before, as if you intended to continue the item.
- when the line is not empty and already indented, keep that  
indentation.

I am not sure if that would be seen as more consistent and stable, up
for discussion.

- Carsten

On Feb 10, 2008, at 6:05 AM, Eddward DeVilla wrote:

> On Feb 9, 2008 10:47 PM, William Henney <whenney@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 9, 2008 9:55 PM, Eddward DeVilla <eddward@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> In any case, I'm just trying to come up with something  that does  
>>> the
>>> job but is not an eye sore in the org buffer.  I'm looking for
>>> something that visually looks like a natural footer or terminator in
>>> plain text.  (And a footer ought to be able to be preceeded by a
>>> header.)  I know the significance of the '/' in xml, but visually,  
>>> it
>>> doesn't look right to my eyes.  Aside from the meaning in xml  
>>> code, it
>>> does say end-of-list to me.  If anything, it seems to connect the
>>> preceeding and proceeding text, like this/that.  The dashes draw a
>>> dividing line.
>>
>> How about "-." ?
>
> Better.  Still kind of cryptic, but more subtle.  Actually, since
> that's all that's on the line, it really doesn't matter what it is.
> Font lock can hide it or gray it out.  It could look like a blank line
> without the ambiguity.
>
> Edd
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: list indentation

[cezar]

Personally I do like:

- this way of indenting a long line
  that extends to more than one line

So an idea that comes to mind is, how about disabling indentation for
lists and have a special way of editing a list item like so:

- have your list content here up to a point where you press <C-M-TAB>
  and that indents your next line (or pointer)

So pressing just TAB in a list content won't have any effect.

Hope that helps.

Regards,
Cezar

Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> writes:

> Hi Everyone,
>
> I am personally not fond of separators, and we must be sure what
> their purpose is.  As a means of terminating a list for export
> and folding, you can use empty lines when setting the variable
> `org-empty-line-terminates-plain-lists' discovered by Will.
> Or any text that is no linger indented behind the bullet marker.
>
> But if I understand correctly, this is really about indentation and
> about M-q paragraph wrapping.
>
> I have thought about how to make aragraph wrapping to respect the
> indentation of a line after a plain list item and failed.  I cannot
> figure it out.
>
> For paragraph wrapping we would really need a separator, and then we
> would need to add this separator to the regular expressions in
> `paragraph-start' and `paragraph-separate', obscure pieces of the
> Emacs formatting which do not work really consistent between different
> commands fill-paragraph and fill-region).  EIther that, or I am not
> really able to comprehend how this works.
>
> About indentation, there are other possible conventions one could use.
> Right now, TAB will indent a line under a plain list item to beyond
> the item bullet.  Independent of the current indentation.  So it will
> indent lines with low indentation, and outdent lines with too large
> indentations.
>
> One could have different conventions.  For example, we could do this:
> In the line after a plain list item:
> - when the indentation is 0 or when the line is empty, make TAB indent
>   to under the line before, as if you intended to continue the item.
> - when the line is not empty and already indented, keep that
> indentation.
>
> I am not sure if that would be seen as more consistent and stable, up
> for discussion.
>
> - Carsten
>
> On Feb 10, 2008, at 6:05 AM, Eddward DeVilla wrote:
>
>> On Feb 9, 2008 10:47 PM, William Henney <whenney@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Feb 9, 2008 9:55 PM, Eddward DeVilla <eddward@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> In any case, I'm just trying to come up with something  that does
>>>> the
>>>> job but is not an eye sore in the org buffer.  I'm looking for
>>>> something that visually looks like a natural footer or terminator in
>>>> plain text.  (And a footer ought to be able to be preceeded by a
>>>> header.)  I know the significance of the '/' in xml, but visually,
>>>> it
>>>> doesn't look right to my eyes.  Aside from the meaning in xml
>>>> code, it
>>>> does say end-of-list to me.  If anything, it seems to connect the
>>>> preceeding and proceeding text, like this/that.  The dashes draw a
>>>> dividing line.
>>>
>>> How about "-." ?
>>
>> Better.  Still kind of cryptic, but more subtle.  Actually, since
>> that's all that's on the line, it really doesn't matter what it is.
>> Font lock can hide it or gray it out.  It could look like a blank line
>> without the ambiguity.
>>
>> Edd
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Re: list indentation

[Carsten Dominik]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4287 bytes --]

Are you talking about something like longlines.el?  I am not sure
if you understand what you mean.

- Carsten
On Feb 10, 2008, at 9:00 AM, cezar wrote:

>
> Personally I do like:
>
> - this way of indenting a long line
>  that extends to more than one line
>
> So an idea that comes to mind is, how about disabling indentation for
> lists and have a special way of editing a list item like so:
>
> - have your list content here up to a point where you press <C-M-TAB>
>  and that indents your next line (or pointer)
>
> So pressing just TAB in a list content won't have any effect.
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> Regards,
> Cezar
>
> Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> writes:
>
>> Hi Everyone,
>>
>> I am personally not fond of separators, and we must be sure what
>> their purpose is.  As a means of terminating a list for export
>> and folding, you can use empty lines when setting the variable
>> `org-empty-line-terminates-plain-lists' discovered by Will.
>> Or any text that is no linger indented behind the bullet marker.
>>
>> But if I understand correctly, this is really about indentation and
>> about M-q paragraph wrapping.
>>
>> I have thought about how to make aragraph wrapping to respect the
>> indentation of a line after a plain list item and failed.  I cannot
>> figure it out.
>>
>> For paragraph wrapping we would really need a separator, and then we
>> would need to add this separator to the regular expressions in
>> `paragraph-start' and `paragraph-separate', obscure pieces of the
>> Emacs formatting which do not work really consistent between  
>> different
>> commands fill-paragraph and fill-region).  EIther that, or I am not
>> really able to comprehend how this works.
>>
>> About indentation, there are other possible conventions one could  
>> use.
>> Right now, TAB will indent a line under a plain list item to beyond
>> the item bullet.  Independent of the current indentation.  So it will
>> indent lines with low indentation, and outdent lines with too large
>> indentations.
>>
>> One could have different conventions.  For example, we could do this:
>> In the line after a plain list item:
>> - when the indentation is 0 or when the line is empty, make TAB  
>> indent
>>  to under the line before, as if you intended to continue the item.
>> - when the line is not empty and already indented, keep that
>> indentation.
>>
>> I am not sure if that would be seen as more consistent and stable, up
>> for discussion.
>>
>> - Carsten
>>
>> On Feb 10, 2008, at 6:05 AM, Eddward DeVilla wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 9, 2008 10:47 PM, William Henney <whenney@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Feb 9, 2008 9:55 PM, Eddward DeVilla <eddward@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> In any case, I'm just trying to come up with something  that does
>>>>> the
>>>>> job but is not an eye sore in the org buffer.  I'm looking for
>>>>> something that visually looks like a natural footer or  
>>>>> terminator in
>>>>> plain text.  (And a footer ought to be able to be preceeded by a
>>>>> header.)  I know the significance of the '/' in xml, but visually,
>>>>> it
>>>>> doesn't look right to my eyes.  Aside from the meaning in xml
>>>>> code, it
>>>>> does say end-of-list to me.  If anything, it seems to connect the
>>>>> preceeding and proceeding text, like this/that.  The dashes draw a
>>>>> dividing line.
>>>>
>>>> How about "-." ?
>>>
>>> Better.  Still kind of cryptic, but more subtle.  Actually, since
>>> that's all that's on the line, it really doesn't matter what it is.
>>> Font lock can hide it or gray it out.  It could look like a blank  
>>> line
>>> without the ambiguity.
>>>
>>> Edd
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode


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_______________________________________________
Emacs-orgmode mailing list
Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: list indentation

[cezar]

Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> writes:

> Are you talking about something like longlines.el?  I am not sure
> if you understand what you mean.
>
> - Carsten

I was suggesting another way you could keep the current formatting and
also deal with the indentation (by disabling indentation for lists).

Cezar

Re: Re: list indentation

[Bastien Guerry]

Hi Ceazr,

cezar <cezar@mixandgo.ro> writes:

> How common is a blank line in a list item ?
> I'd say it's more common for a blank line to end a list item.

FWIW I often use multi-paragraphs in a list item.  
I think it should be outlawed.  

Generally speaking, I think we shouldn't put too many constraints on the
way the text has to be formatted, even if it costs the user two or three
additional keystrokes.

Best,

-- 
Bastien