From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Teemu Likonen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 23:10:20 +0300 Message-ID: <87zkxrjihf.fsf@mithlond.arda> References: <4C3B6A8A.80105@gmx.de> <87iq4f8gyh.fsf@telefonica.net> <874ofzl2ji.fsf@mithlond.arda> <201007162023.32116.tassilo@member.fsf.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1279312077 25335 80.91.229.12 (16 Jul 2010 20:27:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 20:27:57 +0000 (UTC) Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3scar_Fuentes?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Tassilo Horn Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 16 22:27:52 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OZrVc-0002rP-9e for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 16 Jul 2010 22:27:51 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54045 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OZrVY-0001fk-Tv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 16 Jul 2010 16:27:44 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=59433 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OZrT6-0008Tu-Ie for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Jul 2010 16:25:19 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OZrGg-0000fA-KQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Jul 2010 16:12:23 -0400 Original-Received: from mta-out.inet.fi ([195.156.147.13]:32818 helo=jenni2.inet.fi) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OZrGg-0000ez-7e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Jul 2010 16:12:22 -0400 Original-Received: from mithlond.arda (84.251.132.215) by jenni2.inet.fi (8.5.122) id 4C33307700447914; Fri, 16 Jul 2010 23:10:41 +0300 Original-Received: from dtw by mithlond.arda with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OZrEi-00019E-T9; Fri, 16 Jul 2010 23:10:20 +0300 In-Reply-To: <201007162023.32116.tassilo@member.fsf.org> (Tassilo Horn's message of "Fri, 16 Jul 2010 20:23:31 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.2.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127456 Archived-At: * 2010-07-16 20:23 (+0200), Tassilo Horn wrote: > Try using VI on one of those layouts, and then tell me if it's > convenient: > > http://itproductivitytools.com/images/dvorak.jpg > http://neo-layout.org/grafik/druckvorlage/neo-druckvorlage.png I know that Vi=E2=80=99s movement keys (hjkl) were designed for QWERTY ke= yboard. But Emacs=E2=80=99s default C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p are also spread all ove= r the place in those keyboards. Emacs=E2=80=99s mnemonics (fbnp) won=E2=80=99t = make them ergonomic and nice for new (power) users to adopt. In order to make editing keys ergonomic and elegant, Dvorak people need to rebind some keys anyway and that=E2=80=99s in both Vi and Emacs. The difference is that the default Vi keys are very much optimal for QWERTY keyboard, and QWERTY is what most people use. Emacs movement and editing keys are not ergonomically optimal for _any_ well-known keyboard layout. You know, the arrow keys are in reversed T position: =E2=86=91 =20 =E2=86=90 =E2=86=93 =E2=86=92 People learn to use them very easily because of their mutual positions and because they are friendly for muscle memory, not because there are (mnemonic) arrows painted on them. Powerful text editor should depend on ergonomics and muscle memory and make rebinding keys easy (for different keyboard layouts like Dvorak). While Emacs is otherwise very powerful text editor it has these serious flaws: - The default movement keys are not ergonomic. =20 - While rebinding movement keys is technically easy, in practice it is very difficult because many/some major modes will reuse the f-b-n-p mnemonic practice anyway. User would need tons of custom hooks for different major modes to change bindings like C-c C-fbnp to something more ergonomic. The established (mnemonic) practice leaves me to conclude that tolerating the suboptimal default keys is still lesser pain. The situation is suboptimal but will probably never change.