From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ted Zlatanov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: list-print-separator Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 10:59:26 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Message-ID: <87zknel3tt.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <8762qr8x23.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87vcy7mbxq.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb9nglen.fsf@lifelogs.com> <877haiebj9.fsf@lifelogs.com> <874o5mml36.fsf@lifelogs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1303747189 1576 80.91.229.12 (25 Apr 2011 15:59:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 15:59:49 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 25 17:59:44 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QEOCN-0007iO-KA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 25 Apr 2011 17:59:43 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43161 helo=lists2.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QEOCN-0002Qr-8Z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 25 Apr 2011 11:59:43 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44646) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QEOCJ-0002QA-PM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 25 Apr 2011 11:59:40 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QEOCI-0004Gt-OY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 25 Apr 2011 11:59:39 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:48046) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QEOCI-0004Gp-Eq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 25 Apr 2011 11:59:38 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QEOCG-0007gG-S0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 25 Apr 2011 17:59:36 +0200 Original-Received: from 38.98.147.130 ([38.98.147.130]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2011 17:59:36 +0200 Original-Received: from tzz by 38.98.147.130 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2011 17:59:36 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 44 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.98.147.130 X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" User-Agent: Gnus/5.110016 (No Gnus v0.16) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:q/sSRqiodQmvJSOkmhqOb+13l3k= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:138738 Archived-At: On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 12:37:07 -0300 Stefan Monnier wrote: >>>> With my list-print-separator patch you get fast and OK-looking. >>>> Are you concerned it's only useful sometimes? The speed penalty is >>>> minor if it's not used. SM> I'd rather make `pp' faster, or if it's too difficult split it into SM> a "print-really-pretty" and "print-quickly-and-not-too-ugly". >> The users most likely to benefit, at least for Gnus where I have >> experience supporting them, are those who can't read ELisp well. They >> are also less likely to complain or roll their own solution. SM> I'm not sure how that relates: what I propose is for Gnus to call SM> print-quickly-and-not-too-ugly and that would be done by people who know SM> Elisp fairly well. The users who don't know Elisp well would not need SM> to know that the file was printed via this function rather than via SM> `print'. Assuming Gnus is the only package to need this, you're right. But the reason for my proposal is that I think other packages can use it too. EIOIO serialization, for instance, could use it. >> So I hope you see that this is not a "print pretty" request but a real >> need for any package that uses ELisp's build-in serialization. >> I'm concerned that your "good enough" solution will not be adopted >> because it will be much slower than the native `print' serialization, >> and optimizing it is much more work than my proposed patch of 4 lines. SM> I'm not convinced it's difficult to write SM> a print-quickly-and-not-too-ugly that's reasonably fast. Admittedly, SM> reasonably fast may still be too slow, but in that case I'd rather just SM> use an ugly print out than try to make `print's output prettier or SM> more customizable. OK. I'll look at `pp' in my spare time :) SM> PS: you could also add a -*- mode: ugly-sexp -*- cookie in the SM> newsrc.eld file so that when a user opens it for reading it can easily SM> (automatically?) be prettified. That's a great idea, but I'm concerned that users may need to open the file outside Emacs if it's causing startup problems or if the data is triggering a bug (e.g. encoding cookie is wrong). I've run into that. Ted