From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Emacs history, and "Is Emacs difficult to learn?" Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 13:38:18 +0200 Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server Message-ID: <87zjt4gtw5.fsf@VLAN-3434.student.uu.se> References: <87y58pplcp.fsf@VLAN-3434.student.uu.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1375184417 12795 80.91.229.3 (30 Jul 2013 11:40:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 11:40:17 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 30 13:40:20 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1V48Hp-00041X-HT for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2013 13:40:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60599 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V48Ho-0006LK-Sa for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2013 07:40:16 -0400 Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!goblin3!goblin2!goblin.stu.neva.ru!aioe.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 101 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: SWN/nubmpQxYKwY7hPy4YA.user.speranza.aioe.org Original-X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (gnu/linux) X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.8.2 Cancel-Lock: sha1:ezxQRfrhdUfQTqqf1P20oKJupqU= Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:200275 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:92542 Archived-At: Rustom Mody writes: > I started using Emacs in the early 90s because I wanted > something better than an interactive shell for teaching > interaction with a (pre)haskell interpreter. Dunno if comint > mode existed then -- I at least did not know about it. Wrote my > own mode which used to crash not just Emacs but even Linux in > interesting ways! Couple of years later, found scheme-mode > written on top of comint and search-n-replaced it for my > purposes. A couple of years back a made a very small project in Haskell [1]. I used Emacs, of course, and cannot recall any problems. Wasn't there even a Haskell mode to deal with it? Haskell is a bit too advanced and ambitious for me. Programming isn't pure and it will never be. Recursion in every conceivable direction, set functions, and a phobia for "side-effects", and all other functional programming hangups, they just get me thinking to much *how* I do things, instead of the desired balance of how, what, why, when, etc. > I am frequently asked to use something more 'modern/reasonable' > etc than Emacs (Eclipse/sublime-text etc). I did Eclipse once on a project with some other people. We were all on the same level so I couldn't force them to use Emacs, but regardless of any lack of support for Java in Emacs (which by the way I never noticed, but thankfully my Java experience is limited) -- regardless of that I'd prefer Emacs without the slightest doubt, because Eclipse really got my blood boiling with frustration. I remember my and my Spanish friend wading through the jungle of menus for a good 15 minutes just to get to the place to increase the font *size*. But even though he was from Spain, I was the guy who lost my head, because I was so used to everything just working in Emacs. > Some of the reasons are simply noob-acclimatization issues like > tutorial uses C-f/b/n/p instead of cursor keys, non-use of cua > keystrokes etc. While I think the Emacs kill ring, and the shell kill ring for that matter, is a lot better than the Windows/Mac OS cua "clipboard" (or whatever they call it), the cursor keys (as you mention) are the huge advantage because then you don't have to reach all the time, and then reset, to make an edit. Instead, you just type and type. But to call it "keys" - the cursor movement keys in Windows and Mac OS that correspond to Emacs keystrokes are but a subset of all such Emacs functionality. Besides, there is always Elisp if you need more. I agree that this is the obstacle newcomers have to overcome, but this is only a matter of patience. Or perhaps attitude: if they start Emacs, and find their cua stuff doesn't work, and immediately start hammering the Escape key in panic, and then never use Emacs again, of course Emacs "sucks". If they don't do that, they shouldn't have any problems. Muscle memory is apt at learning. People that are right handed, and get their right hand cut off in a machine, will be just as good ping pong players with their left hand, in almost no time, because not having a right hand will force them to do *everything* (including opening doors) with their left. There is no better sparring partner than necessity. By the way, what you mention is what made me "fall" for Emacs, the shortcuts, in combination with the US keyboard layout that I use for typing. Some guys told me I should change, and I told them, "Why? I don't care the US people have different shortcuts for the programming special chars, I know the ones *I* have." But then I changed, and I instantly (in one evening) realized that it is not about "other" shortcuts, it is about *better* shortcuts. Emacs and a new keyboard layout made for an all new, incredible typing and programming experience. > However some things are from the POV of an old user more > crucial: poor support for refactoring - poor support for > mainstream languages like Java "Refactoring"? As for Java, I don't think it is a coincidence that Emacs offers poor support for that... (Again, I never experienced that, but I believe you.) > which make it quite hard to sell Emacs in an Eclipse-d world I gave up changing other people a long time ago. First, I never succeeded even once, and believe me, I tried. Second, if I'd do that all my efforts would amount to that, and I'd never do anything productive at all (and be frustrated by failure on top of that). [1] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/candelim/ -- Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below) computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573