From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: phillip.lord@newcastle.ac.uk (Phillip Lord) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs terminology (not again!?) [was: Apologia for bzr] Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 12:22:45 +0000 Message-ID: <87zjmqalm2.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> References: <877gact76s.fsf@gnu.org> <34c8c13b-c5c6-4e5a-9248-b09d5d1936da@default> <87eh4hkq6c.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83y52dk82n.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1390220584 6344 80.91.229.3 (20 Jan 2014 12:23:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 12:23:04 +0000 (UTC) To: Emacs-Devel devel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jan 20 13:23:11 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W5Dsi-0004Az-87 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 13:23:08 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51389 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W5Dsh-000217-Pn for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 07:23:07 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52562) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W5DsY-00020n-5w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 07:23:05 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W5DsQ-0005GV-RL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 07:22:58 -0500 Original-Received: from cheviot22.ncl.ac.uk ([128.240.234.22]:43013) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W5DsQ-0005GA-I4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 07:22:50 -0500 Original-Received: from smtpauth-vm.ncl.ac.uk ([10.8.233.129]) by cheviot22.ncl.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1W5DsM-0001xl-DK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 12:22:46 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost (cpc14-benw10-2-0-cust72.16-2.cable.virginm.net [92.234.124.73]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtpauth-vm.ncl.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s0KCMjnu021140 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 12:22:45 GMT In-Reply-To: (Lennart Borgman's message of "Sat, 18 Jan 2014 09:48:56 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 128.240.234.22 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:168777 Archived-At: Lennart Borgman writes: >> > Emacs is never going to be as easy to learn as simple >> > editors, because ease of learning is not its priority. > > There could be a setup of Emacs that is as easy as any editor to learn. It > is the advanced features that will take time to learn. For what it is worth, I think Emacs could do with some considerable improvement on the "self-documenting" front. A student of mine recently asked about tutorials for Emacs. Of course, I said, it's got one built-in, to which the response was that it was rubbish. So I went and looked at it for the first time in many years. I think he has a point. As the warning notice that you get if you change things says: "The main purpose of the Emacs tutorial is to teach you the most important standard Emacs commands (key bindings)." Are key bindings the main thing we want to teach new users? Worse the first 200 lines are all about how to move the cursor; I mean, most new users are just going to use the cursor keys, or a mouse. It's what I do, even after years of using Emacs with a few exceptions (Ctrl-A, E and M-<,> if you are interested). It isn't till line 199 that you get something powerful (repeat commands) rather than painful. Then, we move onto Ctrl-G (line 236) which is what happens when it breaks. And line 274 get us to Windows. And line 470 before we find out how to open a file. There are also 4 "If you are on a windowing system" statements: lets be honest, any new user is going to be on a windowing system. People starting to use computers today are likely to be unaware that it is possible to not be on a windowing system. Other things that seem to be missing, are links to the rest of the world. Why no links to web pages, or videos? Or indeed, in-line images. Perhaps, users would be less confused by "windows", "buffers" and so on, if they hadn't got bored long before the point where these are explained? If there is interest in incorporating it, I'd be willing to rewrite it. Phil