From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: In defense of Customize [was: Trying to right-align my window on startup] Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 19:35:39 +0100 Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server Message-ID: <87zjmgosx7.fsf@nl106-137-194.student.uu.se> References: <3cec217d-8adb-4e6c-b239-eff0c8b520c9@googlegroups.com> <6hrwqhkjfv6.fsf@sap.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1390934411 9788 80.91.229.3 (28 Jan 2014 18:40:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 18:40:11 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jan 28 19:40:19 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W8Da7-0004zc-1n for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 19:40:19 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38942 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W8Da6-0006pi-LL for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 13:40:18 -0500 Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!news.kjsl.com!feeder.erje.net!eu.feeder.erje.net!news.mb-net.net!open-news-network.org!aioe.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 76 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: VVbyYd/iFZoeWNmD9i++cQ.user.speranza.aioe.org Original-X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.8.2 Cancel-Lock: sha1:1Yl1noycCdRpqtK/MfSBKxSQ4I8= Mail-Copies-To: never Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:203468 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:95737 Archived-At: Christoph Wedler writes: > Just to put the rest of this posting into context: > neither do I. Everybody who has written LaTeX > documents knows that Per has done an excellent job > with AucTeX - just one example... Not "everybody who has written LaTeX documents" know that (but I don't contradict you as for the quality of AUCTeX). But of course, you know there is a plain LaTeX mode (latex-mode), and AUCTeX must be installed explicitly (except for XEmacs). > I do not hate Customize I hope so :) > 1. Exploring customization options. > > There were too many customization option to grasp > (I'm not against having many options!), and one could > not easily grasp the interdependence between > different options. I don't think Customize is that good for that. It is just too much. You get lost in the jungle. To explore Emacs capabilities and options in general, I recommend a good (physical) *book*. Why not "Learning GNU Emacs" by O'Reilly? [The only blunder of that book is that they don't mention either RMAIL or Gnus, because now "there are more modern clients for that" (i.e., outside the Emacs world - pseudo-quote, by the way) - which is nonsense - it doesn't matter how "modern" anything is, what matters is that you type emails, and you type in Emacs, and you are active in Emacs, and you write emails about what you do.] > They had (and have - that is the point!) a problem > with having to define a function/form which contains > the necessary customizations and having to add this > to some hook, provide it to eval-after-load, or ... That can be a problem but I don't see how that is easier with Customize. What should be done, rather, is that those things should be "parameterized" so you actually *can* get that with `setq' Lisp alone. > 3. Re-using customization (parts) of other Emacs users > (or own on other machine) That will always be frustrating so I think the solution to that problem is: don't do it. To have one computer at work, one at home, and one gadget in between, and to run Emacs on all, and expect everything to be the same - why do that *at all*? Why not have the same computer at work, as at home? Why have several computers at all? Why not have *one* computer, which behaves the way you want it to, and when you are not there, you do different things? If you *must* use different computers all over, and you have accepted that, why not accept that they *are* different, and thus the UX as well? > 3. Positive: custom-themes could be a step in the > right direction Themes can be a solution to get a quick start but equally we should encourage people to be able to *change* what they don't like. Just like as changing something in Linux should never equal "install another distribution", we should instill the notion that everything can be changed, and that without any outside interference. -- underground experts united: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573