From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: taylanbayirli@gmail.com (Taylan Ulrich =?utf-8?Q?Bay=C4=B1rl=C4=B1?= =?utf-8?Q?=2FKammer?=) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Contributors and maintainers Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 09:29:13 +0200 Message-ID: <87zizcfzna.fsf@T420.taylan> References: <87si59wj42.fsf@T420.taylan> <878u6znii9.fsf@T420.taylan> <877fmjj9p6.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87zizfm2dq.fsf@T420.taylan> <871tcr7yvq.fsf@fastmail.com> <87mvvfm0bd.fsf@T420.taylan> <56250803.5080601@cs.ucla.edu> <87a8ren5ys.fsf@T420.taylan> <56259BB1.3070908@cs.ucla.edu> <878u6ykmvt.fsf@T420.taylan> <87h9llvo98.fsf@members.fsf.org> <5626622A.3090707@yandex.ru> <87zizdijbp.fsf@T420.taylan> <56267302.7050606@yandex.ru> <87io61igyu.fsf@T420.taylan> <56267CDF.6010201@yandex.ru> <87wpuhh15s.fsf@T420.taylan> <562683B9.1060305@yandex.ru> <83y4exe71v.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1445412574 7441 80.91.229.3 (21 Oct 2015 07:29:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 07:29:34 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Oct 21 09:29:26 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Zonps-0005Kp-US for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 09:29:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49618 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zonps-00035o-7j for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 03:29:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:60820) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zonpm-00035g-Vp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 03:29:20 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zonpk-0001h9-BA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 03:29:18 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wi0-x233.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c05::233]:38842) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zonpk-0001h5-2U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 03:29:16 -0400 Original-Received: by wicll6 with SMTP id ll6so60739125wic.1 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:29:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent :mime-version:content-type; bh=WTZr6QtGpH9hCIU8/OzYjwDQwBeO5bISgKcS1TjgzSc=; b=KeTpxhp2L6fGS52vtU2olhgl6VSPrbxJt+u4iVZKs9JEwDC8VK2gq1rwKX7phRjYt9 7ZqX/hG8uAsat/BT9ls6ch3UaKujj1SIDyR2DP5Rr+QZOmtjidgKO7lZitt4ARElXQSu 1aJOu00BALjdT+xTGzjV3FnpdPJra3iFvFhVnOzUVJMnjyj7Ir9ejccdx1iCcaePMVFQ GJFLw4s1C4ujxwcTGbG4QtWawTDMAx5Wb4G8wviP3FdlybAdo39JFLrW/K/NQ/2wuPey BgEs4yO+1urDatrWFMUpRaK8K/nD2OzdjjvxOIs6z91p9EQp4NXI+DAe/5+nc2FNIoYj XOkg== X-Received: by 10.194.216.228 with SMTP id ot4mr8933408wjc.156.1445412555389; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from T420.taylan ([2a02:908:c32:4740:221:ccff:fe66:68f0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l1sm8514898wjx.13.2015.10.21.00.29.14 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:29:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (John Wiegley's message of "Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:34:12 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c05::233 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:192266 Archived-At: "John Wiegley" writes: >>>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: > >> That's also my point, exactly. Any code in Emacs should use standard APIs, >> and if those APIs need to be fixed, they should be fixed regardless. But the >> need to be fixed does not mean the APIs should be bypassed. > > This message is not just to Taylan, but to others who wish to contribute to > Emacs in the future. > > The argument transpiring between Taylan and Eli has attempted to paint a > picture wherein the proposed change is "obviously" right (as seen by the > submitter) and "obviously" unacceptable (as seen by the maintainer). This > clash has led to much heated debate. > > Part of the debate seems to be a lack of appreciation of the difference > between contributors and maintainers. You see, it is not sufficient to have a > good idea, no matter how clear it is to its submitter. *We* maintain Emacs, > and so the change must satisfy *us*, no matter how thick our skulls may be. If > we ask for clarification that Wednesday follows Tuesday, either you provide us > with that clarification, or the change doesn't go in. Period. > > Our work is done on a volunteer basis, and so we choose what we want to > support in the future, and what we don't. Like it or not, Eli is 100% correct > and right, as maintainer, to ask for clarifications how and when he sees fit > -- and to expect those clarification in a format he wants to see them in! This > will remain true until he steps down as maintainer, or someone else fills his > shoes. > > No submitter can brow-beat us into accepting a patch because they think it is > "clear" or "right" or "obvious". This isn't how collaboration works in the > free software world. We decide who has commit rights, and we reserve the right > to reject and revert commits. I provided clarification several times. It was ignored. Let me list some different mails in which I repeated more or less the same explanation with different wording: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg01392.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg01401.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg01409.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg01415.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg01448.html (maybe more, I didn't went through all) One person got it and also repeated it in their words: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg01464.html And me again on the bug discussion: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2015-10/msg00676.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2015-10/msg00698.html That makes at least 7 times in which I repeated the same thing, and it was ignored every time. Some of those mails contain very detailed, careful explanations of the issue, which I spent a lot of time on. At least 2 or 3 are of that nature. Some other mails by me were also hinging on the same issue, mentioning it implicitly if not explicitly. I also provided a pair of patches (the second more elaborate) to solve this problem I explained. The nature of the patches (their contrast to Eli's patch) should further explain the problem. I hope this makes it clear why I'm outraged. When I say something like "I repeated myself a dozen times and was ignored every time," the "dozen" in that sentence is, by now, actually literal. That's absurd. > If anyone does not like this, be forewarned. Otherwise, please show Eli and > the other developers here the respect and deference they deserve, especially > in light of *how much time* they have given freely to the Emacs project. Are > they ideal individuals who always express themselves perfectly? Probably not. > But they are our maintainers, and if you can't respect them, you shouldn't be > contributing here. It will only frustrate you. What I gather from being persistently ignored is that I'm receiving absolutely *no* respect *at all* from most people here. That is the one and only reason I would start losing respect towards others. The detailed and polite explanations of my problem listed above hopefully give a hint on which way the lack of respect primarily goes. The lack of respect I'm receiving is *not* of the kind where someone is being actively nasty, insulting, etc. It's a kind where a person's very voice is being denied, not even countered. That's pretty grave. > Lastly, if anyone is having persistent, negative experiences with some aspect > of the Emacs developer community, please approach me directly. My e-mail is > johnw@newartisans.com. It is my vehement interest that we find a successful > path for all involved, and I will work with anyone to help make this possible. I doubt most people who come to contribute code have much motivation to work out basic social issues. My feedback is probably the best you will get, and I'm not saying it's good at all. Most others will just leave the place immediately, or not even try because they already saw in the archive or heard from others enough horrible things about emacs-devel. I hope this helps. > John Taylan