From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Marcin Borkowski Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 20:08:16 +0200 Message-ID: <87zipuabcf.fsf@mbork.pl> References: <87h9cdmj6t.fsf@delle7240.chemeng.ucl.ac.uk> <5775A512.4020803@gmail.com> <8337ntvm2d.fsf@gnu.org> <5776B89F.60704@gmail.com> <83k2h5tbtv.fsf@gnu.org> <5776E1F4.3020709@gmail.com> <83eg7ctt90.fsf@gnu.org> <87poqwpfld.fsf@Rainer.invalid> <83y45ks69l.fsf@gnu.org> <87inwkari1.fsf@mbork.pl> <83eg77oott.fsf@gnu.org> <87a8hvc0yr.fsf@mbork.pl> <8360sion9i.fsf@gnu.org> <8737nmbx4m.fs f@mbo> <8737nmbx4m.fsf@mbork.pl> <83bn2an57u.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1467828524 32380 80.91.229.3 (6 Jul 2016 18:08:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 18:08:44 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Stromeko@nexgo.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 06 20:08:36 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1bKrFU-0006jL-07 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2016 20:08:36 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35174 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bKrFT-00034k-AY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2016 14:08:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:57462) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bKrFM-000349-GU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2016 14:08:29 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bKrFL-0000zK-99 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2016 14:08:28 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([2a01:5e00:2:52::8]:46021) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bKrFF-0000yE-3P; Wed, 06 Jul 2016 14:08:21 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E0A91B6B1; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 20:08:19 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.mojserwer.eu Original-Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.mojserwer.eu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vL77PJ1PGUR1; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 20:08:14 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from localhost (98-171.echostar.pl [213.156.98.171]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AE6131B6B0; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 20:08:14 +0200 (CEST) User-agent: mu4e 0.9.16; emacs 25.1.50.3 In-reply-to: <83bn2an57u.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2a01:5e00:2:52::8 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:205278 Archived-At: On 2016-07-06, at 17:42, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Marcin Borkowski >> Cc: Stromeko@nexgo.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 17:32:25 +0200 >> >> >> On 2016-07-06, at 16:27, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> >> >> From: Marcin Borkowski >> >> Cc: Stromeko@nexgo.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> >> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2016 21:57:16 +0200 >> >> >> >> >> On 2016-07-02, at 12:07, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> > You are missing the point. The point is how much of the basic >> >> >> > functionality one needs to master before they can use a single feature >> >> >> >> >> >> As I said, in case of Org, next to none. >> >> > >> >> > That is false (I do use Org seriously). >> >> >> >> No, it isn't. >> >> >> >> In order to start to use outlining (one feature) you only need to know >> >> how to mark up headlines (bol + stars + space + title) and how to use >> >> TAB to cycle visibility. >> > >> > If I need only outlining, I don't need Org, I can use the Outline >> > mode. We are talking about features that are in Org and only in Org. >> > >> > Come on, let's be serious in this discussion! >> >> Sorry, Eli, but I can say the same. Be serious. As I wrote: >> >> > I covered more than half a dozen extremely useful features >> >> and you commented on _one_ of them. And mentioning Outline mode in >> a discussion on _ease of use_ as an alternative of Org is kind of >> strange. > > It wasn't a discussion on ease of use. Look back. It was a > discussion of how much of the mode one needs to learn before one > becomes productive with one feature the mode provides. You said: next > to none, and gave outlining as the example. To which I responded that > outlining alone doesn't justify using Org at all, as there are simpler > alternatives. Well, this discussion is like Org-mode itself: it is about many things. ;-) Still, I did not "gave outlining as an example": I gave outlining as _one of eight examples_. And you have yet to give an example a "simpler alternative" to Org's outlining, since Outline mode is not one. Indeed, AFAIR, one of the first motivations for Org was that Outline mode had a terrible UI. See here: https://youtu.be/oJTwQvgfgMM?t=353 (3-4 minutes is enough to see what I mean). >> Compared to Org, Outline mode is almost unusable wrt visibility >> cycling. Yes, it has more capabilities, but it also has an order of >> magnitude more commands to remember! > > Remembering commands is not an issue when you use a mode frequently > enough, or infrequently enough. But introducing something like 6 or 8 commands where one is enough is grossly inefficient, both for the user's (muscle) memory and for the limited set of convenient keybindings. Best, -- Marcin Borkowski http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science Adam Mickiewicz University