From: Marcin Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Cc: Stromeko@nexgo.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole
Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 20:08:16 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87zipuabcf.fsf@mbork.pl> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <83bn2an57u.fsf@gnu.org>
On 2016-07-06, at 17:42, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> From: Marcin Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl>
>> Cc: Stromeko@nexgo.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 17:32:25 +0200
>>
>>
>> On 2016-07-06, at 16:27, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>>
>> >> From: Marcin Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl>
>> >> Cc: Stromeko@nexgo.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> >> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2016 21:57:16 +0200
>> >>
>> >> >> On 2016-07-02, at 12:07, Eli Zaretskii <address@hidden> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > You are missing the point. The point is how much of the basic
>> >> >> > functionality one needs to master before they can use a single feature
>> >> >>
>> >> >> As I said, in case of Org, next to none.
>> >> >
>> >> > That is false (I do use Org seriously).
>> >>
>> >> No, it isn't.
>> >>
>> >> In order to start to use outlining (one feature) you only need to know
>> >> how to mark up headlines (bol + stars + space + title) and how to use
>> >> TAB to cycle visibility.
>> >
>> > If I need only outlining, I don't need Org, I can use the Outline
>> > mode. We are talking about features that are in Org and only in Org.
>> >
>> > Come on, let's be serious in this discussion!
>>
>> Sorry, Eli, but I can say the same. Be serious. As I wrote:
>>
>> > I covered more than half a dozen extremely useful features
>>
>> and you commented on _one_ of them. And mentioning Outline mode in
>> a discussion on _ease of use_ as an alternative of Org is kind of
>> strange.
>
> It wasn't a discussion on ease of use. Look back. It was a
> discussion of how much of the mode one needs to learn before one
> becomes productive with one feature the mode provides. You said: next
> to none, and gave outlining as the example. To which I responded that
> outlining alone doesn't justify using Org at all, as there are simpler
> alternatives.
Well, this discussion is like Org-mode itself: it is about many
things. ;-)
Still, I did not "gave outlining as an example": I gave outlining as
_one of eight examples_. And you have yet to give an example a "simpler
alternative" to Org's outlining, since Outline mode is not one. Indeed,
AFAIR, one of the first motivations for Org was that Outline mode had
a terrible UI. See here: https://youtu.be/oJTwQvgfgMM?t=353 (3-4
minutes is enough to see what I mean).
>> Compared to Org, Outline mode is almost unusable wrt visibility
>> cycling. Yes, it has more capabilities, but it also has an order of
>> magnitude more commands to remember!
>
> Remembering commands is not an issue when you use a mode frequently
> enough, or infrequently enough.
But introducing something like 6 or 8 commands where one is enough is
grossly inefficient, both for the user's (muscle) memory and for the
limited set of convenient keybindings.
Best,
--
Marcin Borkowski
http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski
Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science
Adam Mickiewicz University
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2016-07-06 18:08 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 126+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2016-06-15 20:55 Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole (Was: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package) Robert Weiner
2016-06-15 21:53 ` Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole John Wiegley
2016-06-15 22:16 ` Robert Weiner
2016-06-16 0:39 ` John Wiegley
2016-06-16 14:41 ` Robert Weiner
2016-06-16 23:18 ` Richard Stallman
2016-06-16 23:51 ` John Wiegley
2016-06-17 0:19 ` Robert Weiner
2016-06-17 5:02 ` Tom
2016-06-17 15:29 ` raman
2016-06-17 23:54 ` Robert Weiner
2016-06-18 16:47 ` Fabrice Popineau
2016-06-18 17:05 ` Robert Weiner
2016-06-28 15:23 ` Eric S Fraga
2016-06-28 15:43 ` Robert Weiner
2016-06-29 14:34 ` Richard Stallman
2016-06-29 15:04 ` Robert Weiner
2016-06-30 17:58 ` Richard Stallman
2016-06-30 23:02 ` Scott Randby
2016-07-01 7:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-01 8:17 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2016-07-01 9:46 ` Eric S Fraga
2016-07-01 20:53 ` Tom
2016-07-05 18:24 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-01 22:09 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-01 23:01 ` Allen S. Rout
2016-07-03 0:06 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-05 18:21 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-05 19:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-05 19:53 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-06 14:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-06 15:41 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-01 22:09 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-02 7:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-03 0:06 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-01 18:38 ` Scott Randby
2016-07-01 19:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-01 21:11 ` Tom
2016-07-02 6:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-03 0:05 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-05 18:13 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-06 22:22 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-01 21:34 ` Scott Randby
2016-07-01 21:58 ` John Mastro
2016-07-02 7:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-02 9:13 ` Achim Gratz
2016-07-02 10:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-02 10:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-05 18:07 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-05 19:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-05 19:57 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-06 14:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-06 15:32 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-06 15:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-06 18:08 ` Marcin Borkowski [this message]
2016-07-03 0:05 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-03 13:59 ` Scott Randby
2016-07-03 14:19 ` Scott Randby
2016-07-05 18:02 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-02 9:00 ` Joost Kremers
2016-07-02 9:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-05 18:17 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-05 17:51 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-06-29 16:33 ` Tom
2016-06-29 17:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-06-29 20:04 ` Richard Stallman
2016-06-29 22:15 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2016-06-30 2:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-06-30 13:41 ` Allen S. Rout
2016-07-03 0:08 ` Richard Stallman
2016-06-29 17:30 ` Allen S. Rout
2016-06-29 20:04 ` Richard Stallman
2016-06-30 8:26 ` Eric S Fraga
2016-07-03 22:36 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-04 13:58 ` Kaushal Modi
2016-07-04 21:20 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-04 21:33 ` Robert Weiner
2016-07-05 22:59 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-06 4:21 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-06 22:29 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-06 7:12 ` Nikolai Weibull
2016-07-06 22:30 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-07 12:09 ` Nikolai Weibull
[not found] ` <921c10a04c17462988c2821ed40582e7@DB5PR01MB1895.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>
2016-07-06 8:06 ` Eric S Fraga
2016-07-07 21:54 ` Richard Stallman
[not found] ` <33003e1e02b04d2db5ee60baff9a040f@HE1PR01MB1898.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>
2016-07-08 12:23 ` Eric S Fraga
2016-07-09 16:56 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-10 6:47 ` chad brown
2016-07-10 14:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-04 21:33 ` Phillip Lord
2016-07-05 13:11 ` Etienne Prud'homme
2016-07-05 14:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-05 23:03 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-06 8:49 ` Joost Kremers
2016-07-07 21:54 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-06 10:44 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-05 16:16 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-06 22:22 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-05 17:26 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-07 22:01 ` Richard Stallman
[not found] ` <<E1bKBHv-0000lE-Bw@fencepost.gnu.org>
2016-07-04 22:26 ` Drew Adams
2016-07-05 17:50 ` Nikolaus Rath
2016-07-05 20:30 ` joakim
2016-07-06 22:24 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-02 7:18 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-02 8:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-05 15:49 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-03 0:06 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-05 15:53 ` Marcin Borkowski
2016-07-06 22:22 ` Richard Stallman
2016-06-17 13:31 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2016-06-18 18:02 ` Richard Stallman
2016-06-18 20:31 ` Fabrice Popineau
2016-06-19 11:49 ` Robert Weiner
2016-06-19 12:36 ` Fabrice Popineau
2016-06-17 15:27 ` raman
2016-06-16 23:57 ` Robert Weiner
2016-06-17 15:53 ` Karl Fogel
2016-06-18 18:06 ` Richard Stallman
2016-06-20 18:15 ` Karl Fogel
2016-06-20 20:36 ` Tom
2016-06-28 15:28 ` Eric S Fraga
2016-06-16 8:44 ` Re:Re: Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole (Was: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package) tumashu
2016-06-16 14:07 ` Robert Weiner
2016-06-16 15:38 ` Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole raman
2016-06-16 16:06 ` Robert Weiner
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