From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [Emacs-diffs] feature/integrated-elpa 4f6df43 15/23: README added Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 10:15:01 +0100 Message-ID: <87zim747hm.fsf@russet.org.uk> References: <20160916203414.25203.87032@vcs.savannah.gnu.org> <867f9t4n4t.fsf@realize.ch> <874m4x8sq5.fsf@russet.org.uk> <8637kh4j1u.fsf@realize.ch> <87wpht4b1i.fsf@russet.org.uk> <86y4292m2u.fsf@realize.ch> <8737kd8vfh.fsf@russet.org.uk> <867f9n2r6s.fsf@realize.ch> <87a8egw2az.fsf@russet.org.uk> <8360p3i2gt.fsf@gnu.org> <86a8efqf9p.fsf@realize.ch> <8337k7hysd.fsf@gnu.org> <8660p3qd99.fsf@realize.ch> <831szrhwsr.fsf@gnu.org> <8760p12qzw.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83vax0en1u.fsf@gnu.org> <87pon5ek3q.fsf@russet.org.uk> <87twcgttjf.fsf@russet.org.uk> <86a8e7symk.fsf@realize.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1476436696 27494 195.159.176.226 (14 Oct 2016 09:18:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 09:18:16 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alain Schneble Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 14 11:18:09 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1buycj-0004FL-7e for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2016 11:17:53 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46192 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1buych-0006jY-JP for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2016 05:17:51 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52040) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1buya8-0005R7-IW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2016 05:15:13 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1buya6-0001r6-CV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2016 05:15:11 -0400 Original-Received: from cloud103.planethippo.com ([31.216.48.48]:47539) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1buya0-0001lh-5O; Fri, 14 Oct 2016 05:15:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=russet.org.uk; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From; bh=jq161Vd/icf28sDvFC9CtD5CmY3PddikRDefc1oYmtE=; b=T4bxBMGaDAHcfO9IAFG5q8WBdl cGizd97P+qXBD20/r8mQOE9hDfrqTdemRvk2a4Vm6G7l5IoR3GNi1pa7sgiyR2ilCfYUlKsT0xMi1 gt7PXkr9FPvff51U2yeJM0uGeKBVBjvNEH/XnNqUvyI2xK5O5CmYH49/Yy5BfFauDNb/yV3HLxqYU J/cT9OY4TWMR1EQcfK09fS8SOjcYL7yXPGSU2KCc7cZyf0hA8F2dnftjTtfCa+Q+DGllR7kO6voS1 WMpYhOaEmzgXgyxk7553kS0sOOe3CsKCSRYsB3FdGBess3ITfXT2chOF1VknIihwIiq/tdpiOUoQl zAo0Swew==; Original-Received: from janus-nat-128-240-225-60.ncl.ac.uk ([128.240.225.60]:44016 helo=russet.org.uk) by cloud103.planethippo.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86_1) (envelope-from ) id 1buyZy-003GyX-FO; Fri, 14 Oct 2016 10:15:02 +0100 In-Reply-To: (John Wiegley's message of "Thu, 13 Oct 2016 15:29:47 -0700") X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cloud103.planethippo.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - russet.org.uk X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cloud103.planethippo.com: authenticated_id: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk X-Authenticated-Sender: cloud103.planethippo.com: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 31.216.48.48 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:208235 Archived-At: John Wiegley writes: >>>>>> "AS" == Alain Schneble writes: > > AS> /usr/local/share/info/org.info.gz > AS> /usr/local/share/emacs/26.0.50/etc/ORG-NEWS > AS> /usr/local/share/emacs/26.0.50/etc/org/README > AS> /usr/local/share/emacs/26.0.50/etc/org/.*\.xml > AS> /usr/local/share/emacs/26.0.50/etc/refcards/orgcard.tex > AS> /usr/local/share/emacs/26.0.50/lisp/org/.*\.(el\.gz|elc) > > AS> Unless I'm misundarstanding you, using your approach, all files will end > AS> up in /usr/local/share/emacs/26.0.50/lisp/org (using the example > AS> configuration I gave above). > > AS> Do you really want to give up this standard file structure? > > I think we should *not* give up the standard file structure. At least not now. > Using ELPA should feel "first class" for those authors contributing packages > that are to become part of the standard distribution. > > Perhaps in future, for the sake of ease-of-upgrading, we'd want to change this > policy, but one thing at a time. It's worth considering what ease-of-upgrading means. At the moment, for example, if I install org-mode with ELPA package.el generates all the autoloads for org-mode and sticks them into a file. All is good. But the old autoloads are still there, stuck in loaddefs.el in non-user space, non-removable or changable. Functions that are in the /usr/share/emacs installation but NOT in the ~/.emacs.d/elpa installation will remain autoloaded, even though they should not be. If org mode were it's own directory, with it's own org-autoloads.el, then package.el could (and already does I believe) just not autoload any of the functions from the old version of org-mode, nor put any of its files into load-path. It seems to me that one of the major use cases for adding core/tarball ELPA support is enable packages to be present by default in an Emacs tarball download, while still allowing upgrading from ELPA (or the org-mode repo). I cannot see how to address this using the "copy files from ELPA into core" build, at least not with significant replumbing of the current emacs build; perhaps someone else can, but it is worth considering this when thinking about the valid but generic concerns I am hearing about change. Phil