From: Adam Porter <adam@alphapapa.net>
To: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Sv: Christmas wish: Literate Elisp
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 17:18:19 -0600 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87zhfpp6is.fsf@alphapapa.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: VI1P194MB0429CD885D5A3C60E74A97FC96530@VI1P194MB0429.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM
arthur miller <arthur.miller@live.com> writes:
>> On the contrary, the semicolon prefix (and fontification according to
>> my preferences in Elisp buffers) makes it easy for me to see what is
>> code and what is prose.
>
> Aren’t starting ’(’ and ’)’ + identation enough?
I explained in the message you quoted why they are not enough. Please
read it carefully.
>> No, in fact, some of my Elisp would have to change, because it would
>> no onger be sufficient to look at comment prefixes to know whether a
>> line s code or comment. Such a change would be very expensive in
>> terms of the necessary human work that would ripple outward. And
>> your proposed variable would not obviate the need to account for both
>> states in my code.
>
> In which way? Can you alaborate more please? You would not need to
> write anything special. If you don’t wish to write literal code, then
> just don’t. Prefix your comment lines with ’;’ as currently and don’t
> care about it, Everything will work as it does now. I don’t see a
> problem there. If I am wrong please explain.
You don't seem to understand. I am talking about existing code outside
of emacs.git which parses Elisp, which would not be compatible with your
proposed changes to Elisp syntax.
>> This is the problem: as you have shown, parentheses commonly appear in
>> prose, even at the beginning of lines. Punctuation, such as semicolons,
>> do not
>> ; or, at least, should not
>
> Yes, and it is always possible to construct some obscure case where
> things break. Look for example at C or C++ and all undefined
> behaviours in the standard. I mean, sure, there are always soem
> obscurities, but do they matter? If one writes an article or a book or
> some prosa and uses literal programming, and there is one explicit
> case not allowed to use, how important is than to use exactly that
> constrcut? I mean considering cons and pros, should one abandon the
> entire idea because of one minor obscurity?
Your own message showed how it happens in prose. In fact, it's common
enough and ambiguous enough that Elisp already forbids open-parens at
column 0 in strings and requires them to be escaped. How is this a
minor obscurity?
Don't you realize how important it is that syntax in a file format be
unambiguous?
> Well as I see literal programming it is to make it easier for humans
> to mix code and prosa. What I proposedis just one small step further
> in that direction.
It is also a step toward ambiguity, churn, and bugs in other people's
code, which you would not have to fix.
> I don’t see how org makes it any different? In org you still have to
> use both ’;’ and #+BEGIN_SRC - #+END_SRC markers.
Have you used Org mode? Have you looked at a literate program written
in an Org file? The point is that top-level comments are written
between code blocks, without comment prefixes.
> So it is even more clutter to eye.
As I said in the message you're replying to:
You can even choose a face for org-meta-line that makes #+BEGIN_SRC
lines virtually (or literally!) disappear.
> It is about being able to simple write and mix code and text. If it is
> good or bad idea is up to individual preference. I personally find it
> a cool thing, you seem to think it violates old ways,
I have said nothing about old ways. I explained exactly what the
problems with the proposal are. Please read my message carefully.
> As a small reflection about us humans being slentrians, I have an
> illustration. Caves are still as good for living as they were 20 000
> years ago. We can for sure make many cases against living in houses
> such as not being natural, can crash on it’s inhabitants, cost
> resources to construct etc etc. But yet, pros of liiving in houses
> outweigh far the cons, and not many people today prefer to live in a
> cave. Sorry maybe ti is a too contrived illustration. Anyway, if you
> are good with ’;’ just continue to use it. But if a change like this
> does not seem to cost lots in development terms, then why opposing if
> somebody else find it cool. It is just that is more elegant and in a
> sense cool thing to be able to do it without special tools as some
> markers.
It's not cool to imply that citing technical problems with your proposal
is like being a cave-dweller.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2019-12-18 23:18 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 45+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2019-12-12 15:45 Christmas wish: Literate Elisp arthur miller
2019-12-12 17:29 ` Stefan Monnier
2019-12-14 4:40 ` Sv: " arthur miller
2019-12-14 14:08 ` Stefan Monnier
2019-12-15 8:37 ` arthur miller
2019-12-16 12:01 ` Sv: " arthur miller
2019-12-16 13:41 ` Stefan Monnier
2019-12-16 14:02 ` Sv: " arthur miller
2019-12-16 16:07 ` Jonathan Leech-Pepin
2019-12-17 2:09 ` arthur miller
2019-12-17 11:06 ` Adam Porter
2019-12-18 16:29 ` Sv: " arthur miller
2019-12-18 18:49 ` Adam Porter
2019-12-18 20:04 ` Sv: " arthur miller
2019-12-18 23:18 ` Adam Porter [this message]
2019-12-18 23:53 ` Sv: " arthur miller
2019-12-20 15:58 ` Unknown
2019-12-18 21:18 ` Sv: Sv: Sv: " Stefan Monnier
2019-12-18 22:43 ` Christmas wish: Literate Elisp (Intro) VanL
2019-12-19 0:05 ` Sv: " arthur miller
2019-12-18 22:59 ` Sv: Sv: Sv: Christmas wish: Literate Elisp Adam Porter
2019-12-18 23:18 ` Sv: " arthur miller
2019-12-18 23:52 ` Adam Porter
2019-12-19 0:02 ` Sv: " arthur miller
2019-12-19 0:42 ` chad
2019-12-19 1:50 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-12-20 0:55 ` Sv: " arthur miller
2019-12-20 15:00 ` Stefan Monnier
2019-12-20 15:50 ` Stefan Monnier
2019-12-20 15:50 ` Sv: " arthur miller
2019-12-20 16:17 ` Stefan Monnier
2019-12-20 16:34 ` Eduardo Ochs
2019-12-21 1:18 ` Sv: " arthur miller
2019-12-21 5:24 ` Eduardo Ochs
2019-12-21 5:52 ` Sv: " arthur miller
[not found] ` <VI1P194MB042965777086C4466B7FF5EC962C0@VI1P194MB0429.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
2019-12-21 15:29 ` arthur miller
[not found] ` <VI1P194MB0429A123183C15AF8EC3956B962C0@VI1P194MB0429.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
[not found] ` <jwv7e2pln3s.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <VI1P194MB0429F37A29A2720037CAD9F9962C0@VI1P194MB0429.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
2019-12-22 7:01 ` Sv: " arthur miller
2019-12-20 16:51 ` Phillip Lord
2019-12-21 1:16 ` Tim Cross
2019-12-21 4:24 ` Sv: " arthur miller
2019-12-21 6:41 ` Tim Cross
2019-12-21 9:39 ` VanL
2019-12-21 14:17 ` Sv: " arthur miller
2019-12-14 4:16 ` Richard Stallman
2019-12-14 5:05 ` Sv: " arthur miller
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