From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ihor Radchenko Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Org mode and Emacs (was: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 21:22:07 +0800 Message-ID: <87zginqohs.fsf@localhost> References: <87h74ztshe.fsf@gmx.de> <871qw31ois.fsf@yahoo.com> <8735gj4ceo.fsf@gnu.org> <87ee038ipt.fsf@gmx.de> <87o7z61v59.fsf@gmail.com> <87bkv527p5.fsf@gmail.com> <835yld93w7.fsf@gnu.org> <877d5t0yrn.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12806"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Alan Mackenzie , Tim Cross , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 08 15:24:32 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nyvfj-00037B-Q3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 15:24:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36840 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyvfi-0001K4-32 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 09:24:30 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40570) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyvcr-0007cM-Nv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 09:21:35 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x1035.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::1035]:56256) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyvcp-0006tp-8i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 09:21:32 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x1035.google.com with SMTP id e9so8039663pju.5 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 06:21:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :mime-version; bh=DfuQo8TnU5sI9PvcOEFVLzIq1VjPyObqtzBwhdGXr9k=; b=NmWKwPgPiLwvADRSbIq3GsmJkbCCwUMKtikVWUVecLNPWFAiUveDgYAcyodZVyARSh eyX97p+oZz6MhwZeMqW9bttjSY58Z9SXlLIM8ZGX1fIzxNPVJG+0Id7GM1A+36dxuOYH QMVzLxT/4vNAWDLNU1Xz7UufvyYh5WpR1sbgoLpZNWNtEfwnktTHQFfMhvw0ciczSRa9 K15yRorLSqNd/5mBvdI2ohI1KFTj3ajPeAZhEbQjcPBzcmXTe/8RuHW+OqXGD9YhoI1o Bu1hcdabrOMCorpw4h5zQTblJFAg7u1awMevDZWn70WM5ErKUvHw+7QOLkaiNsHChG3b sRMA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=DfuQo8TnU5sI9PvcOEFVLzIq1VjPyObqtzBwhdGXr9k=; b=Du1NdlR448JkCKkh31gYeOtxpGAApwZlfDA4EaiGWM7xuVUYVcxQn18mjHxHiJi1iu QnvvVJlUDNpi1TYhTBMnXohJlECRBWQ1WSWh1LNSyeYU/S12VoTzJxV/KDuGGZr4pav2 hukajabLa5hJlKl8FIZaX3FTRBvGTbAs7q8FQwwNjeL49p0v1MBUJziqanMGkIR9lzxc 0m3eJIx9sAYFEki/JXS0Ftk300QvVzjq1QoyyLttFFTPHCEvmmqndgfDLY/bf8JAe3pU HJlKSNKh+wx3DcAbtMDQ/10gIq3B+pSs/6Gp8x/pl7D6Wq5NeeP/2cwiytvSZGKFLun3 bEmw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530zrK/YwAyjNaYLIGiGBg0B4Zr43T3RfPBWk9auU+B3J6wmLGqq txD0eUNigYb2BYZnrGQHhy4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyEhKPI1xneajx+/vLx7ldfqV9WNf/7eniB8rH/5hMFpbxNQa/B4DUzm9/bpLdtOIlrhbcybQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:e601:b0:1e8:ad01:1eaa with SMTP id j1-20020a17090ae60100b001e8ad011eaamr7721305pjy.81.1654694489739; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 06:21:29 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost ([64.32.23.62]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k130-20020a628488000000b0051c03229a2bsm7823053pfd.21.2022.06.08.06.21.28 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 08 Jun 2022 06:21:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1035; envelope-from=yantar92@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x1035.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:290927 Archived-At: Stefan Monnier writes: > AFAICT the problem seen from Emacs, is that Org is large (even for > a basic uses, which occasionally leads to high load times) and that it > doesn't follow all the usual Emacs conventions, such as > overriding/remapping standard key-bindings (the resulting behaviors may > sometimes be similar to the standard one, but even when that's the case > the redefinition can easily bite the user). I am not sure if I follow the argument. Major modes are allowed to change defaults. For example, special modes often change truncate-lines value. Org mode is also tweaking defaults (yes, many of them). I do not see any problem here in general. If you have some specific cases when Org mode alters Emacs defaults in a way that bites the user, please give concrete examples. Otherwise, your criticism is not very constructive. > The problem seen from Org is that Emacs doesn't use Org enough :-) > [ This paragraph's shorter length probably reflects the fact that I'm > less familiar with Org than with Emacs. ] > > I think the way forward is to define a "basic org-mode". This one could > be used at many more places where there's currently an occasional desire > to use Org that's resisted because of the above problems. > Ideally, org-mode would then be defined as an extension of this "basic > org-mode". Also ideally some of those extensions would be reworked so > they can be used "Emacs-wide" rather than only in Org (obviously, that > can only make sense for some of them). > > We could start this "basic org-mode" as a trivial copycat of > `outline-mode` and then start adding Org features to it. The driving > constraint is to keep it lightweight and rules-abiding enough that there > won't be any resistance to using it, while at the same time making sure > that the features added to it can be removed from the "org-mode > extension", so that org-mode and "basic org-mode" don't diverge. This is reasonable. RMS also asked for this years back https://orgmode.org/list/E1kIPh1-0001Lu-Rg@fencepost.gnu.org Since we cannot start Org from scratch, factoring out individual modules is taking a lot of time and having the hostile attitudes expressed in some of the emails in this thread is not exactly encouraging. If you want Org to be more modular, please help by reporting inconsistencies or misbehavior to Org ML. Best, Ihor