Re: [NonGNU ELPA] New package: devil

[Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>]

Susam Pal <susam.pal@gmail.com> writes:

> Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> wrote:
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>>
>> >> From: Payas Relekar <relekarpayas@gmail.com>
>> >> Cc: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>,  susam.pal@gmail.com,
>> >>  emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> >> Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 10:53:15 +0530
>> >>
>> >> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>> >>
>> >> > Why use the name "Devil" for this?  It doesn't seen to explain anything
>> >> > about the package's purpose.  It is likely to put some people off.
>> >>
>> >> Every name is going to put someone or another off, can't really help it.
>> >> OpenBSD has their daemon and there are already funny anecdotes about it,
>> >> but it doesn't hurt anyone.
>>
>> Also, "daemon" is not just an OpenBSD thing.
>>
>> > "daemon" is a term whose meaning in computing context is widely
>> > accepted for many years.  "Devil' isn't.
>>
>> I agree.
>>
>> >> > If there is no clear reason why "Devil" is a good name, let's choose
>> >> > a better name now.
>> >>
>> >> As mentioned by Susam in previous mail, as well as the repo README, the
>> >> name refers both to 'eVil' (extensible Vi Layer) as well as 'God-mode'.
>> >
>> > People are extremely unlikely to understand that, even if they know
>> > about Evil in Emacs.  And even if they do figure out this is related
>> > to Evil, the truth is that the package is not meant to be used by
>> > users of Evil.
>>
>> I think it is more likely than you assume if you ask enthusiasts, but if
>> we consider the average user who doesn't hang around in Emacs-related
>> forums, chats, etc. then this is very true.
>>
>> >> The name is distinct, and I like it for what it is.
>> >
>> > Please reconsider, I think this name is very unfortunate, because it
>> > gives users no clue whatsoever about the package's purpose.
>>
>> Susam, what do you say?  Do you have any ideas?  A few names I can think
>> of might be:
>>
>> - no-modifier-mode
>> - prefixless-mode
>> - implicit-ctrl-mode
>> - comma->control-mode
>>
>> but I'm not really convinced by any of these (haven't really used the
>> package yet either).  Perhaps this might inspire someone else to come up
>> with a better suggestion?
>
> Although the default translation rules in Devil translates comma to
> ctrl, m to meta, etc., Devil is very configurable and one is free to
> configure Devil in other ways that may or may not involve the comma
> key or the modifier keys.

Right, that was why I said I wasn't convinced by the suggestions with
"comma" in the name.  By the way, you should add a custom setter to the
user option that configures the key to update the minor-mode map to
rebind the key.

> For example, I am aware that there are users of Devil who use the
> semicolon as the Devil activation key and translate semicolon to
> control. There are also users who only translate some activation key
> to control key but regular alt modifier key on their keyboard for the
> meta modifier.
>
>> If you really insist, then I think we really have to come up with a
>> better description, because "Minor mode for Devil-like command entering"
>> is really confusing.
>>
>> > Thanks.
>
> While I understand the desire for a more descriptive name, I believe
> that "Devil" is a suitable choice due to its humorous reference to
> both God mode and Evil mode. Some people like the name. Some do not. I
> like this name.

If you insist, I guess we'll go with that (unless anyone wants to veto
it), but I think it is sad to contribute to the further spread of
confusing and opaque names for packages that has been increasing on GNU
and NonGNU ELPA recently.

> If it is essential for the package's name to reflect its purpose, I
> propose "Devil" to stand for "Devil's Extremely Versatile Interception
> Layer".

I think you know that that is not what is being talked about here.
Retroactive acronyms are usually just a joke, and don't help address the
issue that newcomers face when they are given packages names like
"Corfu", "Captain", "Luwak" or "Eglot".  They are not indicative of
their functionality and at best have vague links to other terminology
that you can make sense of if someone explains it to you (sort of like
the devil to evil/god mode in your case), but most non-enthusiasts
wouldn't see.

While I get the intended pun, and I think "devil-mode" is a clever idea
knowing the context, I would still like to urge you to reconsider -- not
for your own sake but for that of the users.

> I agree that the current description of the package needs improvement.
> I have now updated it to "Minor mode for intercepting and translating
> key sequences."

That probably as good as it gets for a brief description.

> Regards,
> Susam