From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Daniel Pittman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX. Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:14:36 +1100 Message-ID: <87y6huo8j7.fsf_-_@rimspace.net> References: <87ocitw2dl.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <83pr371rl2.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1268605172 31204 80.91.229.12 (14 Mar 2010 22:19:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 22:19:32 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Mar 14 23:19:29 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nqw9g-0000Ul-Ib for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 23:19:28 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55016 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Nqw9f-0007zs-VG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:19:28 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Nqw8N-0007nT-FL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:18:07 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=43127 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Nqw8L-0007mX-5K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:18:07 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nqw8I-0003Cw-Sz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:18:05 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:59183) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nqw8I-0003Cm-EV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:18:02 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nqw8G-0008Ng-Db for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 23:18:00 +0100 Original-Received: from sdcarl02.strategicdata.com.au ([203.214.67.82]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 23:18:00 +0100 Original-Received: from daniel by sdcarl02.strategicdata.com.au with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 23:18:00 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 59 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: sdcarl02.strategicdata.com.au User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:VxqWkKDZWlbUxzkBZCwhuT2qiRs= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:121978 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > The problem is with how ``convenient'' is decided. I suspect most > users nowadays will say that having the scroll bar on the right is the > most ``convenient''. > > Rather than supposing, let's ask the users what they prefer, and why. For what it is worth, having used Emacs for over ten years now my preference would be to place the scroll-bar on the right by default.[1] Over the course of that period I have used the scroll-bar on the left, for many years, and on the right, for roughly the same period of time[2]. For my use, where I don't use it to scroll because I strongly prefer the keyboard, and only occasionally use it as an indication of document position, this is a nicer position than on the left for me. I find it less visually distracting positioned out of the way, and more consistent with other applications that I use. These are, primarily, esthetic issues, not practical issues. However, I strongly agree with your later comment, Richard, that I am not the user that you should be caring about here: after ten years of using Emacs, and as a software developer, it wouldn't bother me where the default was, because I know that I can change it. I think that for a new user, even if it was the worst option[3], being consistent with other applications by default is a good choice. Emacs is a hard tool to learn, and it cost me a lot of suffering and tears when I first had to use it after using GoldEd and other non-programmable (and non-free) editors for some years. The more non-standard things the new user is confronted with, the harder they are going to find it to learn Emacs, and for better or worse my experience suggests that many users are quite visually- and mouse-focused when they start using a new software package. Regards, Daniel Footnotes: [1] I would strongly oppose any movement to force people to use this, by removing options to hide or alter the placement of the scroll-bar, of course, since personal taste is naturally personal. [2] I swapped them over about five years back now, thinking on it. [3] ...the articles discussing actual research into scroll-bar placement, posted earlier in this thread, suggest that "on the right" was the best option twenty years ago, and it is now even more embedded in the learned experience of computing. -- ✣ Daniel Pittman ✉ daniel@rimspace.net ☎ +61 401 155 707 ♽ made with 100 percent post-consumer electrons