From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Emacs history, and "Is Emacs difficult to learn?" Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 15:05:42 +0200 Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server Message-ID: <87y58pplcp.fsf@VLAN-3434.student.uu.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1375103416 2905 80.91.229.3 (29 Jul 2013 13:10:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 13:10:16 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 29 15:10:19 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1V3nDN-0005nE-IM for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2013 15:10:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43530 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V3nDM-00024m-TG for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2013 09:10:16 -0400 Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!goblin1!goblin2!goblin.stu.neva.ru!aioe.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 87 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: SWN/nubmpQxYKwY7hPy4YA.user.speranza.aioe.org Original-X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (gnu/linux) X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.8.2 Cancel-Lock: sha1:8bL3x7Srq42gJBvjerh+T69PN+k= Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:200239 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:92506 Archived-At: > Remember he [RMS] is talking about secretaries in early days of > computing learning Emacs and learning programming in the > process. I am sure secretaries had no CS degrees and more > importantly they belonged to a period when computers were not > common place and were quite the cutting edge. I just laugh when > young kids in this day of Google complain that Emacs is > primitive and is difficult to learn. I consider it a joke. Oh! That's not a joke, that's *sad*! Those secretaries back then read *books* all they childhood, and they wrote diaries, and letters. In school, if they did not have math and logic, they had languages - perhaps even Latin - and even if they "only" had French, German, or whatever, those languages were acquired in a very systematic way, with classification, parts of speech, all that formal stuff. (This is a dubious way of learning a language, but it certainly trims your brain to think in a focused way.) As for the secretary part later on, they had skills like manual copying - to write with both hands, the same text, simultaneously, on two papers! Those gorgeous wenches at age 22 would - with *skills*, not beauty - scare any monk of medieval Europe back to their monasteries for good! I'm not in the least surprised those blondes, redheads, etc. could use Emacs with a high degree of fluency in but a couple of days. *But*: The kids of today are another ball game. They are not benefited by Google. On the contrary. Their brains are destroyed, or severly confused, by (a)social media, IM, and cell phones, that has made them all jittery with nervous energy, and with an attention span of like one meter straight ahead, and with no self- confidence. Those sad kids-for-life can't learn Emacs, not because Emacs is difficult, but because they can't learn anything. > One does not have to be a Technologist to use or be proficient > with Emacs. 100% correct! I think everybody that types every day should learn to do that in an advanced editor. I never used vim, but I heard that is good, too. You have got this "Technologist" stuff (your word, but OK) backwards. Yet another history lesson from the "youngster": Once upon a time, when the paleo-programmer logged onto a mainframe, there was a shell, and some tools. The paleo-programmer tried them out, and they were cool. But they were few and didn't do that much. The tools spread a small net, and the fish caught were smaller still. Then came Emacs, and by time, it became not a big net, but an industrial fishing expedition. It gave tremendous leverage for access and productivity. I've heard this story told, by a guy - it doesn't matter: I believed him. And all my experience with Emacs since confirms this. So you see, I'm not saying "I'm a 'Technologist', so I use Emacs, and in such a cool way!" - I'm saying, "Because I want to be a (better) 'Technologist', I'm using Emacs as a Kon-Tiki, to go from Peru to Polynesia, and learn everything about it in the process". If you, on the other hand, write poetry or whatever with Emacs, I have absolutely no problem with that, and I consider it completely normal that different persons do different things. I guess I was just born that generous :) [ meta - I didn't read any messages after I said I was done feuding. This because I feared that there were shots at me in those messages, and then I had to fire right back, and we'd never get anything done. This was a practical measure, and shouldn't be interpreted as "I left in total disgust". If you *really* think I should read something between then and now, mail me, and I'll do it. ] > That you have to be super-human to learn and use Emacs is more > of a myth and in reality has no truth to it. Just to hammer the nail, I agree, and I am very surprised you think I thought so. > We can learn a lot from these secretaries and each other. ... and that's the whole point discussing a common interest. -- Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below) computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573