From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [Emacs-diffs] master 9ffb6ce 5/5: Quoting fixes in lisp/international and lisp/leim Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2015 19:43:19 +0200 Message-ID: <87y4goyax4.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <55E3F434.2060507@yandex.ru> <55E496DC.1030608@cs.ucla.edu> <877foas9jh.fsf@gmail.com> <20150901190014.GB1997@acm.fritz.box> <20150902100252.GC2544@acm.fritz.box> <55E724AA.30301@cs.ucla.edu> <20150902172345.GF2544@acm.fritz.box> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1441215810 24095 80.91.229.3 (2 Sep 2015 17:43:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 17:43:30 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Paul Eggert , Dmitry Gutov , Oleh Krehel , Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 02 19:43:29 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXC4G-0005n0-F0 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 19:43:28 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39957 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXC4G-0000Dx-3V for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 13:43:28 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:53738) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXC4C-0000Dn-Ny for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 13:43:25 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXC4B-0006bJ-Q7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 13:43:24 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:39085) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXC48-0006Zk-TB; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 13:43:20 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52904 helo=lola) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXC48-0005hC-4H; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 13:43:20 -0400 Original-Received: by lola (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5FC13E1375; Wed, 2 Sep 2015 19:43:19 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <20150902172345.GF2544@acm.fritz.box> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Wed, 2 Sep 2015 17:23:45 +0000") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:189481 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie writes: > Hello, Paul. > > On Wed, Sep 02, 2015 at 09:32:42AM -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: >> Alan Mackenzie wrote: >> > Using my standard font, lat1-16, the curly quotes use the same glyphs= as >> > ` and ', hence are visibly indistinguishable from them. > >> That's no longer true as of yesterday's master commit=20 >> 1a3518e7c361a9ceaa017c1334a83d14e0651a4e. > > I'm afraid it is still true. After doing a C-h f c-mode, apparent > quotes were in the buffer. Checking them with C-u C-x =3D, they were > indeed curly quotes, but were displayed the same as ASCII quotes. Man, this is like a renaissance of the Emacs 18 backspace/C-h controversy. "your terminal should"/"no, it doesn't"/"any sane terminal described by termcap/terminfo/ADM3A compatibility"/"no, it doesn't". This change is _not_ going to buy us any new users. Reliability wins over aesthetics (which can be ameliorated by font choices if you are bothered) hands down, every time. By the way, ' is an _apostrophe_. Changing it to an open single quote mark in words like "don't" is utterly wrong, having to write \\=3D' for every word with an apostrophe is not a reasonable option. Telling apostrophes from right single quote marks is reasonably easy by looking at the surrounding characters, but "reasonably easy" does not make for an idiot-proof and idiot-rememberable rule. So we are buying into some "do what I=A0mean" territory here, and advanced word processor users will love to tell you how much they love "autocorrecting" quotes. I really don't see any sane way around defining some satisfactorily natural markup sequences for quoting literal material inline and in blocks. --=20 David Kastrup