From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Why does the tutorial talk about C-n/C-p etc? Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 09:58:15 +0000 Message-ID: <87y49q64eg.fsf@russet.org.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1457603933 18069 80.91.229.3 (10 Mar 2016 09:58:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 09:58:53 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Mar 10 10:58:42 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1adxMf-0003Ow-00 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 10:58:41 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47309 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adxMe-00083F-Dc for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 04:58:40 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:60598) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adxMN-00082c-UH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 04:58:24 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adxMN-00080E-2N for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 04:58:23 -0500 Original-Received: from cloud103.planethippo.com ([31.216.48.48]:55741) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adxMH-0007zP-2j; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 04:58:17 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=russet.org.uk; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From; bh=2MWsPcK5gArpbD+VdWVskQMM22T/ezZ59QvXANI8m7E=; b=RmSt9zGUlLL6Z1p5nbWIS8gJnO LOYZtN5iHrMsdmacFZEi5OayLnHhpXRVjv2DFMg5N8iAJBwNfoz/hlLBz8NpACKwbFY0XLY0q0cJL yoCZLxqnCxvEsjcEiJK4AlY+M9Z13yQItF6cbZhqf+AWm938l4YPrrM3L6VAyU+DRvxTIGoWUZizS N7jFmyZdHmvfiAf/az6b25H3GLr0RTXiFTAce3mmnziXQQeqhHnn0pgdgGjyZdICw6Hi9mx9SDXkd 9yM/cEQ58Aet+BzEAhY3Fc5wxVlYmqM9N0XTV3LVnFpcxNJAadl0TCW61oBFyjjqoNgw5UPmcfNFj CO6BtV+Q==; Original-Received: from janus-nat-128-240-225-60.ncl.ac.uk ([128.240.225.60]:35370 helo=russet.org.uk) by cloud103.planethippo.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1adxMF-002Cta-UV; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 09:58:16 +0000 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Thu, 10 Mar 2016 01:46:52 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cloud103.planethippo.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - russet.org.uk X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cloud103.planethippo.com: authenticated_id: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk X-Authenticated-Sender: cloud103.planethippo.com: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 31.216.48.48 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:201363 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Users who learn move the cursor with arrow keys in Emacs experience > slow editing. We should get them started the way that works better. I have doubts that you have any strong evidence for this. The arrows keys work perfectly well in my experience. In addition, there is the mouse. And if that is still too slow, you can use things like ace-jump. The mouse and arrows keys also have an additional huge advantage: they work any where, including outside Emacs. Even if you are correct, then you still have to account for the negative effect putting "how to move the cursor" in front of new users. Most of them see this and think, "why is this so hard" (I have at least weak evidence of this, from sitting behind new users and watching). The point of a tutorial is not to teach people to become brilliantly efficent power users. It's to get them going, and to see the advantages as quickly as possible. Phil