From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Joshua Branson Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2018 15:41:06 -0400 Message-ID: <87y3cl2egd.fsf@fastmail.com> References: <87sh36inql.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org> <8736v6icgt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83tvnmb958.fsf@gnu.org> <877ekigiiw.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <837ekhb2me.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <87k1oeaofu.fsf@ada> <20180825103413.gbm5stsl67j6weow@Ergus> <87k1od7vzf.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83wosd5h3x.fsf@gnu.org> <871sakzssu.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83bm9n6f7d.fsf@gnu.org> <87tvneql3i.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83o9dl2oob.fsf@gnu.org> <87y3coopyf.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <5261e02f-fd51-7e8d-fb6b-ad013ce2e748@lanl.gov> <87y3cnl7bt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1535830080 3054 195.159.176.226 (1 Sep 2018 19:28:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 19:28:00 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 01 21:27:56 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fwBYp-0000gm-E5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 21:27:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38232 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwBav-0001Sy-Ej for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 15:30:05 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42415) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwBaF-0001Sg-U9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 15:29:24 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwBaB-00086d-1j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 15:29:23 -0400 Original-Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.25]:44191) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwBaA-00086V-Q7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 15:29:18 -0400 Original-Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8416D21AAD for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2018 15:29:18 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 01 Sep 2018 15:29:18 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.com; h= content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm3; bh=SPoVuGvG6tCK99K7uzA6ZKWbIa6UxRkg2L9HmU23Z+o=; b=F9Gv/BKT RIao6tKjhZM8yjviY9xvJ7gjFV4lPH5LqiXFg+btyl93YL1GdaOIcooieP8X0KV6 HSP4OY8S33NXvmCWsNWawxWa9xvxvxjYafSFawdmsDxWK8aUKzHon4eEU5gL6lmQ c5O3AF9Xx+crYhKhVtGLySevdHSsUaasgMLY5AiiijmxboWu+eD+0C43Qha6po9W a5buQk9cI2eobWBOR2JHzeS3rQWOpRYzU26Hoa40qlCGuqsejK85FekCrKa6J1ly yoMYWFXvenXL9U+CzX2d6o0jjeDZbfPv1QGE0mPoooVqJNLRZsgNMg7t6Zj0Wj1O oUbJJZ4f5Mk3nQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=SPoVuGvG6tCK99K7uzA6ZKWbIa6Ux Rkg2L9HmU23Z+o=; b=ZNzv6ijMmL04pnG7Q/P0iFYJDcPXnCYoAOQa9mODaKjs8 WvJ3u6RsymHW3CNgpKsZ4oy1lKtOHkR1P2om6O8DE0+HZQjPubiafasKH2yHp6vR YaEgDEcHbzjzvDDZbGN9ioVmBF/dcsgxwqdRXJXGBQAj2O40uZ2zp1n/vzByDGb1 jAjBI8PHiZalazihDXfhMFJyPc24Pu8BbBTIzoLRa89CVg39Um0tFxB8xxaVYn94 RQwScMnKp2eYAeILsP9wo1OYOM/u5D1ev1x7AsPoy3KfrqtPgITtV8lpybHyxVYK oILxNepx660igzksNlgd64HrE6Nu3Vaj8mV1VSHCg== X-ME-Proxy: X-ME-Sender: Original-Received: from dobby (unknown [72.12.220.132]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 0D9DF10292 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2018 15:29:18 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <87y3cnl7bt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> (hw's message of "Sat, 01 Sep 2018 19:40:48 +0200") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 66.111.4.25 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229171 Archived-At: hw writes: > Davis Herring writes: > >>>>> And I don't remember how to get back when following links in info >>>>> documentation >>>> >>>> You can type 'l' (for "last"), or use the left arrow button on the >>>> tool bar, or click on "Info" in the menu bar and select "Back in >>>> History", or click on Info->History and select any node you visited at >>>> random. >>> >>> Ah! I remembered something about arrows and tried to use the cursor >>> keys --- how about making it so that you can go back and forth in info >>> with Alt+ like you can do in web browsers? >> >> There is the usual issue of Emacs' traditional keybindings clashing >> with those from other (usually newer) domains: Alt generally meaning >> Meta, M-left/M-right are already used for backward-/forward-word. > > Meta seems to be ESC. Alt doesn't do anything like what ESC does, and I > inevitably have two entirely different Alt keys because I'm using a > German keyboard. > > Some key combinations that require some combination of Meta and Control > do not work at all. > > Who would ever press ESC-right or ESC-left to move a word? part of this reason is why I started to use evil-mode. :) > > Hm, ok, I tried Alt, and it now does work, at least in an X frame. Only > the Alt key is on the wrong side of the keyboard, as is ESC, to be > useful for moving. > > Since when does Alt work the same as ESC? > >> Of course, we also have M-b/M-f for those, but the point is that such >> changes do not come without cost. You are free to argue something >> along the lines of "For the future userbase of Emacs, consistency with >> the rest of the world is important enough to change X.", but that's >> quite a bit different from "how about...?". > > The issue in this case is not traditional key bindings vs. more recently > invented ones. The issue is that I very rarely use info and thus do not > remember its key bindings. Does the help page I got stuck in say > anywhere how to get back? > > Why shouldn't Emacs adjust to changes and adopt new key bindings so it > becomes easier to use? > >>> I have menu and toolbar disabled ... >> >> Complaining about navigability and discoverability of an interface >> while having disabled its most discoverable features meant to guide >> new users is a strange combination. > > I'm pointing out a usability issue and you call it complaining. That > must be the right attitude. > > Fine, I'll give vim a try. > > > PS: I tried vim in the meantime, and I'll probably switch. > >>> Basically, I want to use the Emacs server the usual way how you use any >>> server, like a web server or an ssh server or an XMPP server. >> >> Or an X server, which is attached to the hardware that faces the user? >> There's more than one way to think of the word. > > I don't want it to use like an X server, and there are always many ways > to think of all words.