From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "Why is emacs so square?" Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:34:24 +0800 Message-ID: <87y2qqwzan.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <86blno9yle.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87d0845msg.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h7xgjasw.fsf@yahoo.com> <875zdwjais.fsf@yahoo.com> <6a198677-41b6-4dbd-39d0-2b01550d53cf@yandex.ru> <875zdv9jf3.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="62118"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Emacs developers To: Bob Newell Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 20 06:46:00 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQOJk-000G2a-IC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 06:46:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57192 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQOJg-00088M-7J for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 00:45:57 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43802 helo=eggs1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQO8t-0005dY-IZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 00:34:50 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs1p.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQO8n-0007RR-4B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 00:34:41 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic306-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.189.84]:41937) by eggs1p.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQO8j-0007O4-2k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 00:34:40 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1587357271; bh=q0Cftb66DvBoF46VJI/X1ouWYnSD82rmGHVLt41ih1k=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=GJQTv+56TdpTwIdO2quhwHyKobshsrp1r/2IzZAzajtdyGW/0KZQ2BopVKvJs71sZXTRadykFbnUYao7YQCBFaRwttZY9nF7DI4nHGzosGcQkv53Oe+TDhS2ZdjcZkb2qhdRp1Wpu3MNZN9S0+ejukYhwJN/IOOBdTc61YVATPj5iLqw++zeTm5tS6sH6bj1JuKqKR3h2dxp20MtZvqPsOkecLmbkLYvNrxV4oTkyyyfuqSNgFVx85v1xa++cjJIm/TfZO3XLsSce1roCdruCJXiJlD9yGKhYJU9Eolaotr4h+TOROaZ838ZczQRMyi+9oxUmkgAugKGxTyLfvih7A== X-YMail-OSG: cb3rbfUVM1ne1zJ5kCBHxXw1P0LGNvnVkJYQPD7MGxnTtRutn.BzjEx8EwZFsZL d7ApfxczwRvbjRpucHtV8e4oiWLDf_S4jL5AU11uaza6UQxttGmYidhKaru3P161q9K4NEsrWh2F ldGqbbJFn60aZu8CVXrp0DS9lflAvSairkAJrn66eWwlp58yUQ1ORkjlKCcyJJuxgTgItM8Zzur2 gg4RfAxfPCRFHOMniWFRlA14nSIv5rHP9TGH72pHihGk5MQj9r1KCb6Toj2WOiNLXNdPgtnWHhqD U8YzeZL0H6RVIyu.z4r3KYRlOPDWU8Egsb9rgn1YZAJLMsXSCnqS_VaiNhqoEA95Ky5kw5ZLU2kx gAx8S_kAS8N3w61uWwdspq3gNdmi826N3u73s90lFnHYgrz1.2o0ov4TvizhdtVGz044ToDFw3yB MvKLvyhW29MLAtp8DfJsCkSTPeZyqw75HvpJKKMcMJ7LJz8FQBIKvQSBafZn5b_nff6AM9T7zdVW cZxOMevwc9Qjd89B7nNgR5ruOh8234Of4Ho7knFEuZslsnlUadT5GNPqwDl.0bky8j7GWqquY87T iqLjKE.ODOyuIxBI8rHGsV_7Yvhpf0YsjpE1ikJgmtJbjtRLEPTp9FGFthxfvcd.aAq8Pk70dh0c Ap5aU7ouUdqFn494fQkae7CZNMJNyVtsq3ymK1.LIEMNNYnGO_27R0x2yN6jWsYhN4d_uiLgz.O. vD0kd6v14.JRYjdF9zN3SBSY_owqSqGUg0k8KEF28ZP04ivHiXYswyOBAYWka4RpbDwjQ_WgdY_g 28vKYvOg10oQmPCExhttXQYtCzsgawGlcEJwfWisIu Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic306.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 04:34:31 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp430.mail.sg3.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID df966e7d6adaa3fe7d076f978a458390; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 04:34:26 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (Bob Newell's message of "Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:34:57 -1000") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15651 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.189.84; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic306-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs1p.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/04/20 00:34:31 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 X-Received-From: 66.163.189.84 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247358 Archived-At: Bob Newell writes: > But keep in mind that I'm old and grumpy and have used Emacs for > literally decades. When I started on Emacs back in the 80s, I knew > nothing. All I had used up to that point was a series of line-oriented > editors similar to 'ed'. Now (the question of graphics put aside in > that pre-graphics era), how did I learn Emacs? I went through the > tutorial carefully and fully. By the end of that I was a fledgling > Emacs user. It was enough for me to be able to do actual work. I'm also old and grumpy, and I pretty much learned Emacs the same way (and only about a decade after you did). It would still be nice if we had a way for making Emacs easier for today's lazy people to learn though. > Then, as I needed new things, I learned them. There was no internet so > I relied upon the Emacs manuals, which were and are very good > references. I picked up elisp as necessary. And it all worked out. Did > I jump right in and use Emacs out of the box? No. I knew I was making > a long-term investment in doing the tutorial, etc. I mostly agree, but the problem is a lot of people aren't willing to make said investment due to prior prejudice, and you need a way to clear that prejudice up. > So here's the grumpy old man part: I sometimes think that today, > software is expected to fall into the instant gratification category. > A lot of users don't want to have to learn anything, they just want a > perfect out of the box experience. But I think those are conflicting > expectations. Yes. > Yes, make Emacs appealing and user friendly. But don't forget that a > masterful tool in the end requires mastery, which can't come for free. > I certainly draw the line at saying Emacs is for everyone. I'm not > saying it's only for some sort of snooty "elite" but I am saying that > it's for those who are willing to learn, seeing some extra work as the > aforementioned long-term investment, and who have the patience reach a > worthy goal a little later rather than right this very minute. I'll keep that in mind.