From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Karl Fogel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What is the most useful potential feature which Emacs lacks? Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 23:08:04 -0500 Message-ID: <87y2pvqhuj.fsf@red-bean.com> References: <87k11htj96.fsf@dustycloud.org> <87pnb7u70r.fsf@red-bean.com> <87y2pvrzho.fsf@dustycloud.org> Reply-To: Karl Fogel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="68268"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Emacs developers , ndame To: Christopher Lemmer Webber Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 14 06:08:41 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ5Am-000Hed-84 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 06:08:40 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49172 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ5Al-00047t-Az for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 00:08:39 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53446) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ5AH-0003j6-Uh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 00:08:09 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-oi1-x234.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::234]:38124) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ5AG-0004By-UP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 00:08:09 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-oi1-x234.google.com with SMTP id j145so1633389oib.5 for ; Wed, 13 May 2020 21:08:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=DmFAMK3jm8dUxGeQVapkvtuc8pv6xrsIF1GJWCIRvJ8=; b=ZhW1pyp4JhAycnUiqZYey9YSZq8Rq3p2T0YzrsMEce7hS/AQo38UBnIke9xEVYzvs1 b0CV5tZAM2JleeLqO5i43zJAejmNVY+foe11DwO3thE9huNeyvSBtpVhKgTuGtSx7p3k pQPsFER6fAjKpUzFWkIdGV3FgZqV1DUTT1ddp0FmnFEC5II1BEAyvzEMw3px8XowU3dX prclAGCd63j5Rp2qvM4sInfc8gytZpr9RtST4u4giOzfC8HizgQ4izr2zD1IWGwUbFez a87fhtQxMR4H2ZLzDH4f+cylkOpke7Fv6e3MbMiG8SmHEJ7sRMSgKgvcwQOg6pdU1BID vvHw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to :date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=DmFAMK3jm8dUxGeQVapkvtuc8pv6xrsIF1GJWCIRvJ8=; b=iICs+pV9QTVji4Twnl5s2V+PqlZc6EU4vaU/g6W1Vmo7XGKsoe3hCWThDkCzckp3Zg wpkBZ945atTferp4t3TYfedAtiCwnKSjODCLkThCyjrqj/g6ERK4400gdXf5eQZtLFFY PFbRgQ/Wgr/JyitpSvUp2O/8oSGYp3bTK95vA48KclV7Qz+Dxhlb3wuksswI1UXynYNJ TBKiO1l7L6gud4j8Pm9sfzILn7bsili7vvJ8XxhfPRVdUjdAuUZal8+opGUg043V7OYz RDtTMtniYP9CDSOFlP2MeEcsg0bGt3MNndf+Y8fxHygpS7uQ2/fmBBjtgDekclh+EHWd utpw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZBJ4wo+4tsBwhP89XDj4LEKEjbViiFMuznDd8X79MHTifdsNp9 aYgreX9PHLoWb4N2ER7AiTJm0Jhh X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJ3Bv96n7LRwp0Jrk9V9S4Y5xFw4K1RpV8oN1jlmI3jTGfkzQqLk49+OiTHMjaBF197RsQWKQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:b36:: with SMTP id t22mr30192729oij.121.1589429287254; Wed, 13 May 2020 21:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from floss (99-112-125-163.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net. [99.112.125.163]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j23sm490948otl.64.2020.05.13.21.08.05 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 13 May 2020 21:08:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87y2pvrzho.fsf@dustycloud.org> (Christopher Lemmer Webber's message of "Wed, 13 May 2020 23:01:39 -0400") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::234; envelope-from=kfogel@gmail.com; helo=mail-oi1-x234.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250184 Archived-At: On 13 May 2020, Christopher Lemmer Webber wrote: >Hi Karl, nice to hear you reply to me :) I don't (can't) read every post to this list, but I always read yours :-). >I agree with a lot of your assessments, that the highest value in Emacs >is the willingness to invest in it. A well customized emacs conforms to >the shape of one's body and mind. And I agree then that this is a >selling point to advertise. > >I still don't think that's in contradiction to the "conventional editor >starter pack" goal though. I know people who are tantalized by the >*idea* of learning Emacs, but get an enormous amount of imposter >syndrome and feeling of being overwhelmed when dipping their toes in the >water... some have tried dipping their toes in the water a few times. > >Me personally, once I decided to learn emacs I just jumped straight into >the deep end. But that's not for everyone. Sometimes it can be nice to >have a wading area in the swimming pool for some folks. I believe those goals *are* somewhat in tension, though. I've taught Emacs to a fair number of people, sometimes successfully and sometimes not. One thing that I recall every newcomer experiencing is, at least initially, the feeling that Emacs was constantly biting them -- constantly surprising them with unexpected and confusing behaviors that jump out from accidental keystrokes. Two of the first things I always have to teach newcomers are `C-g' and `C-h l' :-). Here's a concrete example I've seen over and over: User does `C-x C-f' to find a file, but they hit Return at the wrong moment while typing the file path, causing a Dired buffer comes up visiting the file's directory. The user is, of course, totally baffled by this result. And yet it's obvious why this is a good default behavior for `find-file' -- for people who understand what's going on. If the proposed starter pack is going to mitigate effects like that for newcomers, it can only do so by making the keybound functionality space sparser -- which of course then lowers the reward-for-investment rate as the user gains expertise. How do you propose solving that? Do we make an explicit "I'm ready to leave newcomer mode now" command? But that requires the user to make a guess about the moment of their graduation from newcomer to non-newcomer -- and this moment is mythical, since the learning is a continuous process with no discrete boundary. Changes that make Emacs better for newcomers *without* reducing the reward-for-investment rate are great, and I'm in favor of them like everyone else is. No one would object to them; therefore they are not the subject of any disagreement. I do think those changes are harder to find than you think they are. Really I'm just suggesting a general framework for thinking about what Emacs's goals should be. If we just say "Emacs should be easier for newcomers to learn", that's not a useful rallying cry IMHO. If we say instead "Emacs should try to attract newcomers who have a higher-than-average probability of becoming high-investment users, and should explain early on to those newcomers what the road ahead looks like", *then* we have a high-level guiding principle we can actually use. Best regards, -Karl