bug#59121: 29.0.50; Gnus: Nnir is deprecated but not mention in the manual

bug#59121: 29.0.50; Gnus: Nnir is deprecated but not mention in the manual

[Björn Bidar via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Hey,

While trying out how to search for emails in Gnus, I noticed that
nnir.el is deprecated but the manual (gnu.org/software/emacs/manual)
doesn't mention any of that.
I think the manual should mention that. I think such changes should be
documented right a way in general.


In GNU Emacs 29.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version
 3.24.34, cairo version 1.17.6) of 2022-10-16 built on 2461399
Repository revision: 0ff389c0c17b0b2938e79640e86b594344f20e55
Repository branch: master
System Description: Arch Linux

Configured using:
 'configure --prefix=/usr --sysconfdir=/etc --libexecdir=/usr/lib
 --localstatedir=/var --mandir=/usr/share/man --with-gameuser=:games
 --with-modules --with-libotf --without-gconf --with-libsystemd
 --enable-link-time-optimization --with-native-compilation
 --with-xinput2 --with-pgtk --without-xaw3d --with-sound=alsa
 --without-gpm '--program-transform-name=s/\([ec]tags\)/\1.emacs/'
 'CFLAGS=-march=x86-64 -mtune=native -O2 -pipe -fno-plt -fexceptions
 -Wp,-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 -Wformat -Werror=format-security
 -fstack-clash-protection -fcf-protection -flto=auto'
 'LDFLAGS=-Wl,-O1,--sort-common,--as-needed,-z,relro,-z,now -flto=auto'
 'CXXFLAGS=-march=x86-64 -mtune=native -O2 -pipe -fno-plt -fexceptions
 -Wp,-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 -Wformat -Werror=format-security
 -fstack-clash-protection -fcf-protection -Wp,-D_GLIBCXX_ASSERTIONS
 -flto=auto''

Configured features:
ACL CAIRO DBUS FREETYPE GIF GLIB GMP GNUTLS GSETTINGS HARFBUZZ JPEG JSON
LCMS2 LIBOTF LIBSYSTEMD LIBXML2 MODULES NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY INOTIFY
PDUMPER PGTK PNG RSVG SECCOMP SOUND SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF
TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS WEBP XIM GTK3 ZLIB

Important settings:
  value of $LANG: de_DE.UTF-8
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  show-paren-mode: t
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  line-number-mode: t
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Features:
(shadow emacsbug avy nnir pkgbuild-mode flymake-proc flymake
org-pomodoro-pidgin org-pomodoro org-timer em-unix em-term em-script
em-prompt em-ls em-hist em-pred em-glob em-extpipe em-cmpl em-dirs
esh-var em-basic em-banner em-alias esh-mode eshell esh-cmd esh-ext
esh-opt esh-proc esh-io esh-arg esh-module esh-groups esh-util
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bug#59121: 29.0.50; Gnus: Nnir is deprecated but not mention in the manual

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Björn Bidar via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text
editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

> Hey,
>
> While trying out how to search for emails in Gnus, I noticed that
> nnir.el is deprecated but the manual (gnu.org/software/emacs/manual)
> doesn't mention any of that.
> I think the manual should mention that. I think such changes should be
> documented right a way in general.

Do you mean that you recently upgraded Emacs, and got a deprecation
warning for a nnir-* variable, but there's no information in the Gnus
manual about migrating away from nnir?

That does seem like an oversight...

bug#59121: 29.0.50; Gnus: Nnir is deprecated but not mention in the manual

[Eric Abrahamsen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 764 bytes --]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> Björn Bidar via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text
> editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Hey,
>>
>> While trying out how to search for emails in Gnus, I noticed that
>> nnir.el is deprecated but the manual (gnu.org/software/emacs/manual)
>> doesn't mention any of that.
>> I think the manual should mention that. I think such changes should be
>> documented right a way in general.
>
> Do you mean that you recently upgraded Emacs, and got a deprecation
> warning for a nnir-* variable, but there's no information in the Gnus
> manual about migrating away from nnir?
>
> That does seem like an oversight...

Here's a potential documentation patch.

Eric


[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2: gnusmanualnnir.diff --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 2050 bytes --]

diff --git a/doc/misc/gnus.texi b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
index 7bcf334297..578273aede 100644
--- a/doc/misc/gnus.texi
+++ b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
@@ -21900,14 +21900,13 @@ About mairix
 @uref{http://www.rpcurnow.force9.co.uk/mairix/index.html}
 
 Though mairix might not be as flexible as other search tools like
-swish++ or namazu, which you can use via the @code{nnir} back end, it
-has the prime advantage of being incredibly fast.  On current systems, it
-can easily search through headers and message bodies of thousands and
-thousands of mails in well under a second.  Building the database
-necessary for searching might take a minute or two, but only has to be
-done once fully.  Afterwards, the updates are done incrementally and
-therefore are really fast, too.  Additionally, mairix is very easy to set
-up.
+swish++ or namazu, it has the prime advantage of being incredibly
+fast.  On current systems, it can easily search through headers and
+message bodies of thousands and thousands of mails in well under a
+second.  Building the database necessary for searching might take a
+minute or two, but only has to be done once fully.  Afterwards, the
+updates are done incrementally and therefore are really fast, too.
+Additionally, mairix is very easy to set up.
 
 For maximum speed though, mairix should be used with mails stored in
 @code{Maildir} or @code{MH} format (this includes the @code{nnml} back
@@ -22545,6 +22544,20 @@ nnmairix caveats
 
 @end itemize
 
+@node nnir
+@section Migrating from nnir
+
+@cindex nnir
+
+Gnus' previous search engine was called nnir, and is now obsolete.  If
+you've upgraded Emacs and are now getting obsolete-variable warnings
+about @code{nnir-*} variables, migration is fairly straightforward.
+In addition to the variables raised by the warnings, all previous
+engine-specific variables can be updated by simply replacing the
+@code{nnir-} prefix with @code{gnus-search-}.  For instance,
+@code{nnir-notmuch-program} is now @code{gnus-search-notmuch-program}.
+
+
 @iftex
 @iflatex
 @chapter Message

bug#59121: 29.0.50; Gnus: Nnir is deprecated but not mention in the manual

[Björn Bidar via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

>> While trying out how to search for emails in Gnus, I noticed that
>> nnir.el is deprecated but the manual (gnu.org/software/emacs/manual)
>> doesn't mention any of that.
>> I think the manual should mention that. I think such changes should be
>> documented right a way in general.
>
> Do you mean that you recently upgraded Emacs, and got a deprecation
> warning for a nnir-* variable, but there's no information in the Gnus
> manual about migrating away from nnir?

Not that recently since I'm running Emacs 29.x but the manual says it is
deprecated since 28.x

In any case the manual doesn't mention any other search engines and if I
understand correctly nnir was the only one that supports imap search?

I think the manual should explain the background behind the system a bit
when it explains all the backends that can be used.
From my point of view it did sound like nnir ties all the backends
together.

Br,

Björn

bug#59121: 29.0.50; Gnus: Nnir is deprecated but not mention in the manual

[Björn Bidar via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>>> I think the manual should mention that. I think such changes should be
>>> documented right a way in general.
>>
>> Do you mean that you recently upgraded Emacs, and got a deprecation
>> warning for a nnir-* variable, but there's no information in the Gnus
>> manual about migrating away from nnir?
>>
>> That does seem like an oversight...
>
> Here's a potential documentation patch.

> diff --git a/doc/misc/gnus.texi b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
> index 7bcf334297..578273aede 100644
> --- a/doc/misc/gnus.texi
> +++ b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
> @@ -21900,14 +21900,13 @@ About mairix
>  @uref{http://www.rpcurnow.force9.co.uk/mairix/index.html}
>  
>  Though mairix might not be as flexible as other search tools like
> -swish++ or namazu, which you can use via the @code{nnir} back end, it
> -has the prime advantage of being incredibly fast.  On current systems, it
> -can easily search through headers and message bodies of thousands and
> -thousands of mails in well under a second.  Building the database
> -necessary for searching might take a minute or two, but only has to be
> -done once fully.  Afterwards, the updates are done incrementally and
> -therefore are really fast, too.  Additionally, mairix is very easy to set
> -up.
> +swish++ or namazu, it has the prime advantage of being incredibly
> +fast.  On current systems, it can easily search through headers and
> +message bodies of thousands and thousands of mails in well under a
> +second.  Building the database necessary for searching might take a
> +minute or two, but only has to be done once fully.  Afterwards, the
> +updates are done incrementally and therefore are really fast, too.
> +Additionally, mairix is very easy to set up.
>  For maximum speed though, mairix should be used with mails stored in
>  @code{Maildir} or @code{MH} format (this includes the @code{nnml} back
> @@ -22545,6 +22544,20 @@ nnmairix caveats
>  

What about remote searches such as IMAP?
In any case since the search isn't asynchronous there's the caveat of
Gnus locking up Emacs until it is done.

This kinda goes out of the original topic but the manual doesn't mention
much what can used to reduce the download when IMAP is used (caching etc.).

> +@node nnir
> +@section Migrating from nnir
> +
> +@cindex nnir
> +
> +Gnus' previous search engine was called nnir, and is now obsolete.  If
> +you've upgraded Emacs and are now getting obsolete-variable warnings
> +about @code{nnir-*} variables, migration is fairly straightforward.
> +In addition to the variables raised by the warnings, all previous
> +engine-specific variables can be updated by simply replacing the
> +@code{nnir-} prefix with @code{gnus-search-}.  For instance,
> +@code{nnir-notmuch-program} is now @code{gnus-search-notmuch-program}.

The section should mention the exact version it was deprecated,
instead of now it should be "and is deprecated since <version>".
Something like a separate section about deprecated items could also be
very useful. Some guide around the internet set variables which are no
longer valid, if there is a section for each item deprecated
with an explanation it could help greatly.

Br,

Björn

bug#59121: 29.0.50; Gnus: Nnir is deprecated but not mention in the manual

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 07:29:12 +0200, Björn Bidar via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> said:

    Björn> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
    >>> While trying out how to search for emails in Gnus, I noticed that
    >>> nnir.el is deprecated but the manual (gnu.org/software/emacs/manual)
    >>> doesn't mention any of that.
    >>> I think the manual should mention that. I think such changes should be
    >>> documented right a way in general.
    >> 
    >> Do you mean that you recently upgraded Emacs, and got a deprecation
    >> warning for a nnir-* variable, but there's no information in the Gnus
    >> manual about migrating away from nnir?

    Björn> Not that recently since I'm running Emacs 29.x but the manual says it is
    Björn> deprecated since 28.x

    Björn> In any case the manual doesn't mention any other search engines and if I
    Björn> understand correctly nnir was the only one that supports imap search?

I donʼt know what backend itʼs using, but 'G G' with point on an
nnimap group in the *Group* buffer works fine in emacs-29 [1] (and I
donʼt *think* I had to configure anything for that to work).

Robert

Footnotes:
[1]  I have no idea what the official syntax definition is, but stuff
     like 'from:rpluim@gmail.com' seems to work OK.

-- 

bug#59121: 29.0.50; Gnus: Nnir is deprecated but not mention in the manual

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Björn Bidar via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text
editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>
>> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>>>> I think the manual should mention that. I think such changes should be
>>>> documented right a way in general.
>>>
>>> Do you mean that you recently upgraded Emacs, and got a deprecation
>>> warning for a nnir-* variable, but there's no information in the Gnus
>>> manual about migrating away from nnir?
>>>
>>> That does seem like an oversight...
>>
>> Here's a potential documentation patch.
>
>> diff --git a/doc/misc/gnus.texi b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
>> index 7bcf334297..578273aede 100644
>> --- a/doc/misc/gnus.texi
>> +++ b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
>> @@ -21900,14 +21900,13 @@ About mairix
>>  @uref{http://www.rpcurnow.force9.co.uk/mairix/index.html}
>>  
>>  Though mairix might not be as flexible as other search tools like
>> -swish++ or namazu, which you can use via the @code{nnir} back end, it
>> -has the prime advantage of being incredibly fast.  On current systems, it
>> -can easily search through headers and message bodies of thousands and
>> -thousands of mails in well under a second.  Building the database
>> -necessary for searching might take a minute or two, but only has to be
>> -done once fully.  Afterwards, the updates are done incrementally and
>> -therefore are really fast, too.  Additionally, mairix is very easy to set
>> -up.
>> +swish++ or namazu, it has the prime advantage of being incredibly
>> +fast.  On current systems, it can easily search through headers and
>> +message bodies of thousands and thousands of mails in well under a
>> +second.  Building the database necessary for searching might take a
>> +minute or two, but only has to be done once fully.  Afterwards, the
>> +updates are done incrementally and therefore are really fast, too.
>> +Additionally, mairix is very easy to set up.
>>  For maximum speed though, mairix should be used with mails stored in
>>  @code{Maildir} or @code{MH} format (this includes the @code{nnml} back
>> @@ -22545,6 +22544,20 @@ nnmairix caveats
>>  
>
> What about remote searches such as IMAP?
> In any case since the search isn't asynchronous there's the caveat of
> Gnus locking up Emacs until it is done.
>
> This kinda goes out of the original topic but the manual doesn't mention
> much what can used to reduce the download when IMAP is used (caching etc.).
>
>> +@node nnir
>> +@section Migrating from nnir
>> +
>> +@cindex nnir
>> +
>> +Gnus' previous search engine was called nnir, and is now obsolete.  If
>> +you've upgraded Emacs and are now getting obsolete-variable warnings
>> +about @code{nnir-*} variables, migration is fairly straightforward.
>> +In addition to the variables raised by the warnings, all previous
>> +engine-specific variables can be updated by simply replacing the
>> +@code{nnir-} prefix with @code{gnus-search-}.  For instance,
>> +@code{nnir-notmuch-program} is now @code{gnus-search-notmuch-program}.
>
> The section should mention the exact version it was deprecated,
> instead of now it should be "and is deprecated since <version>".
> Something like a separate section about deprecated items could also be
> very useful. Some guide around the internet set variables which are no
> longer valid, if there is a section for each item deprecated
> with an explanation it could help greatly.

I can mention when nnir was deprecated, but that information is already
in the obsolete variable warning.

The fact is that the Emacs manual ships with Emacs, and if the manual
doesn't mention nnir, then you can be certain that the code doesn't,
either. There are more than 30 nnir customization options for which we'd
need to add obsoletion warnings, all of which warnings would be
redundant with the warning you'll already get from customizing
`nnir-method-default-engines'. Those options are all formed on a very
regular pattern, and very easy to update for gnus-search.

I will add something noting that the IMAP search engine is built in and
requires no configuration, but I think that's all.

Eric

bug#59121: 29.0.50; Gnus: Nnir is deprecated but not mention in the manual

[Eric Abrahamsen]

On 11/09/22 07:42 AM, Björn Bidar wrote:
> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>
>> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>>>> I think the manual should mention that. I think such changes should be
>>>> documented right a way in general.
>>>
>>> Do you mean that you recently upgraded Emacs, and got a deprecation
>>> warning for a nnir-* variable, but there's no information in the Gnus
>>> manual about migrating away from nnir?
>>>
>>> That does seem like an oversight...
>>
>> Here's a potential documentation patch.
>
>> diff --git a/doc/misc/gnus.texi b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
>> index 7bcf334297..578273aede 100644
>> --- a/doc/misc/gnus.texi
>> +++ b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
>> @@ -21900,14 +21900,13 @@ About mairix
>>  @uref{http://www.rpcurnow.force9.co.uk/mairix/index.html}
>>  
>>  Though mairix might not be as flexible as other search tools like
>> -swish++ or namazu, which you can use via the @code{nnir} back end, it
>> -has the prime advantage of being incredibly fast.  On current systems, it
>> -can easily search through headers and message bodies of thousands and
>> -thousands of mails in well under a second.  Building the database
>> -necessary for searching might take a minute or two, but only has to be
>> -done once fully.  Afterwards, the updates are done incrementally and
>> -therefore are really fast, too.  Additionally, mairix is very easy to set
>> -up.
>> +swish++ or namazu, it has the prime advantage of being incredibly
>> +fast.  On current systems, it can easily search through headers and
>> +message bodies of thousands and thousands of mails in well under a
>> +second.  Building the database necessary for searching might take a
>> +minute or two, but only has to be done once fully.  Afterwards, the
>> +updates are done incrementally and therefore are really fast, too.
>> +Additionally, mairix is very easy to set up.
>>  For maximum speed though, mairix should be used with mails stored in
>>  @code{Maildir} or @code{MH} format (this includes the @code{nnml} back
>> @@ -22545,6 +22544,20 @@ nnmairix caveats
>>  
>
> What about remote searches such as IMAP?
> In any case since the search isn't asynchronous there's the caveat of
> Gnus locking up Emacs until it is done.
>
> This kinda goes out of the original topic but the manual doesn't mention
> much what can used to reduce the download when IMAP is used (caching etc.).
>
>> +@node nnir
>> +@section Migrating from nnir
>> +
>> +@cindex nnir
>> +
>> +Gnus' previous search engine was called nnir, and is now obsolete.  If
>> +you've upgraded Emacs and are now getting obsolete-variable warnings
>> +about @code{nnir-*} variables, migration is fairly straightforward.
>> +In addition to the variables raised by the warnings, all previous
>> +engine-specific variables can be updated by simply replacing the
>> +@code{nnir-} prefix with @code{gnus-search-}.  For instance,
>> +@code{nnir-notmuch-program} is now @code{gnus-search-notmuch-program}.
>
> The section should mention the exact version it was deprecated,
> instead of now it should be "and is deprecated since <version>".
> Something like a separate section about deprecated items could also be
> very useful. Some guide around the internet set variables which are no
> longer valid, if there is a section for each item deprecated
> with an explanation it could help greatly.

I've pushed an update that mentions that IMAP works out of the box,
mentions the version the nnir was deprecated, and explains how to update
variable settings. I think that will be all -- we shouldn't and can't
add a bunch of stuff addressing what users may or may not find on the
internet at large.

Thanks,
Eric

bug#59121: 29.0.50; Gnus: Nnir is deprecated but not mention in the manual

[Björn Bidar via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> I think that will be all -- we shouldn't and can't
> add a bunch of stuff addressing what users may or may not find on the
> internet at large.

If you deprecate something it should be documented it doesn't matter
where a user might find "stuff".
It could be a user from an earlier version from all that it matters..

Br,

Björn