From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Karthik Chikmagalur Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [NonGNU ELPA] Add package gptel Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2024 19:12:30 -0700 Message-ID: <87y18v7g4x.fsf@gmail.com> References: <877cgi9m4w.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22147"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 30 04:13:14 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1s1cza-0005YU-7L for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 30 Apr 2024 04:13:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1s1cz0-0003ea-Ip; Mon, 29 Apr 2024 22:12:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1s1cyz-0003eG-0h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 29 Apr 2024 22:12:37 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pl1-x631.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::631]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1s1cyx-0000Ny-0C; Mon, 29 Apr 2024 22:12:36 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-x631.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-1eab16dcfd8so44525975ad.0; Mon, 29 Apr 2024 19:12:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1714443152; x=1715047952; darn=gnu.org; h=mime-version:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=lhPYm5/OHLKkxwoPJKYlnpwu6t9zwsJGfZb+8ZZnFoU=; b=hysO+vEWM7Tifax4wYZI2EwqX1iTPX5V+h+MZ62+oWIdhsWcdzdTvFzb91vaIkDLT4 JHsTOEaHrrToqv7N529/icMnIDkNIsmXnr9l9NB9nUnhqrmPItAhslSGvi11kcV0Pch3 pioUU5TpLGKNDrV+5N5LO0/80C5RxeE1hCD6TAxYOOEwl2qFGj92ymds9ERFWRb2yiPI MioCem+mFqBSFmDTJOv/WKzLgw7JaSPzTjd6Bu9SY9UtV8Xnuu3G/WVyZWdu+SVHmjEk NeRiN0af+oy6dk3ogwYAY++a5A4MfC3xdjqKMhBiFnX2cixOes14fg+EKlNyPT7AtMa7 ppFg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1714443152; x=1715047952; h=mime-version:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=lhPYm5/OHLKkxwoPJKYlnpwu6t9zwsJGfZb+8ZZnFoU=; b=CLCXTI0prCo0ntP895MzK86niVxSLKlHOlyGATdN72w7pM0iFE/UeceIzYoDBp094a VdJpKniWu/6Y7MJX36G1NQdFU4OMpaBOeuaSnvfG34iq21JmyDQo/yuznH+VL5vBmxgg dAzHlfoSL9ZrBIxvPTgtZ89JO+REF1xPCFPjkfKcREYl59nneEZaUJIPbUnI9iRAl/Zo 9Z+NOls4if7tVrlqRsLgXx0j1fHfgNy6+0iNRZcsvdtqbBx8LblAq4kxsQDywQH1IdhJ p37eb+Hav0iT8jwKC5IztSn9kpZmriUpBznW+GVb+yLOYMgc3nLSdgXKWNc0QQv39drs eVsQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx6rMtFajL6s7GNQhcRNTPRKjsMkVEAfiEFdqtdgsXHxZvFaoD/ h+VRADw3UPDb2THOBFtgnElopUZkWvOaB8/NuaGJavsx3B13XlQl+RZr/w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEK0vmJdg0QkmltlJWBYuenjMRgH5v1w23THT1GeTklFSD6vDXUxBH4oNqcri0I9XRsnf3ofA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:3117:b0:2a5:2f48:1eba with SMTP id gc23-20020a17090b311700b002a52f481ebamr7688354pjb.13.1714443152029; Mon, 29 Apr 2024 19:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost (169-231-138-255.wireless.ucsb.edu. [169.231.138.255]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ds14-20020a17090b08ce00b002af2bf7082fsm10059244pjb.39.2024.04.29.19.12.31 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 29 Apr 2024 19:12:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::631; envelope-from=karthikchikmagalur@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x631.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:318390 Archived-At: > This sounds useful, but I think that using it involves an injustice. > I can't be absolutely certain, but it looks that way. > > Plesae correct me if I am mistaken, but it seems that the function of > this package is to help the user use services which are examples of > SaaSS (Service as a Software Substitute). For more explanation, see > https://gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html. > > > If I understand right, the package sends a commend to the server to > request some computing job, and the server sends back the output from > that job. That implies that the service in question is SaaSS. This is correct, this is what all LLM clients enable. This includes llm and Ellama, which are in GNU ELPA. > Making a program available by hiding it in a server is one of the > unjust alternatives to releasing free software. (The other unjust > alternative is releasing it as nonfree software.) This argument doesn't apply in full force here. Most of the programs in question require supercomputers to run, so there is no way for the user to run them locally. Even the smaller, open-source models that the user can run locally require a powerful workstation with a high-end graphics card, so they are beyond my reach and the reach of many users. The output of these local models is also markedly inferior to the commercial alternatives. In other words, there is (at present) no software the user can run as a substitute for the service. The quality of the local models is improving slowly, but so are the ones available as a service and the large gap between them is holding steady. > However, most users are unware of this issue and think of hidden > program as entirely legitimate. They use those without the slightest > idea that there is a reason to object to them. To use these services, the user has to sign up for an account with the companies in question, supply them with a credit card and generate an API key, then configure the LLM client to use the API key. People going through all these steps are aware of the ersatz local alternatives, especially since gptel's README lists all of them and links to instructions to run the local LLMs as well. They have chosen not to (or like me, cannot afford to) run them. > It's up to us to educate the users about this, and gptel seems > like te place to do it. > > How can that be done? One way would be to make gptel > display a brief explanation (a few lines) of why SaaSS > is a bad thing, plus a link to more explanaion about the issue. > It could do this the first time a user uses it, > and maybe every 30 days after that. > > Have you got another idea for how to do this job? As mentioned above, there is no alternative to using the service, so I'm not sure how displaying a message about SaaSS will help. gptel already supports all the available options to run the (comparatively inferior) open-source models locally, and makes it easy to use them. The SaaSS options were the first ones available last year, when people started using them. In presenting a uniform interface to all LLMs from Emacs, I would say gptel makes it easy for Emacs users to switch from the proprietary SaaSS options to the newer self-hosted, open-source models. This is what I've heard from a few gptel users who made the switch to Ollama (a local LLM hosting software) in past months. > Whichever way we implement this, it should be added before > putting the package into ELPA. To be clear, I am proposing to add gptel to NonGNU ELPA, not GNU ELPA. Karthik