From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: An anonymous IRC user's opinion Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 08:48:10 +0200 Message-ID: <87y12xdb6d.fsf@web.de> References: <87plodsjsd.fsf@web.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30102"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: arash.sah@tuta.io, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Oct 09 08:49:25 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1syQVh-0007ec-Gj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2024 08:49:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1syQUt-0003uK-Nd; Wed, 09 Oct 2024 02:48:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1syQUr-0003u9-7g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2024 02:48:33 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1syQUp-00044C-15; Wed, 09 Oct 2024 02:48:32 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1728456492; x=1729061292; i=arne_bab@web.de; bh=/FIovnYyP3pbdqYrDzCAv8dgcgjJF6Yw34k4CBSWStc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=RgYAryVrawfkrjDpKjFCztt2WEQ52hlyW1KL06Ku1B/4BM99dlptfeMWKND/5mJQ IDhoQg6XwS4dZ0zrpCD9ykRIOIdy7aj5oZJejDlUVpbxY4cyboRqaHQIyEMdNx7Xe W+NBJGFLqnA1XcTTnCKqh3umN2W+a1FwRlix6k8RryFlVn/lQ9V7zgzovbEn+UAKU Ez0f7/kAaVlG/ps76RjW+rx2J6EdUKysahqTAAKPhdErdaQe/BQL4C+fQSzJlNoRo c9DQYelv6LbDKfQU/UkSrt6cX6zbPCw3B8jaeE78BUqeWNy+PBlHlRaQEwWo43YNe NnXSss8l1mQS4aYdxQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Original-Received: from fluss ([84.165.28.123]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb105 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M2PdU-1syyij3d2E-0001JT; Wed, 09 Oct 2024 08:48:11 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Tue, 08 Oct 2024 23:30:04 -0400") X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:u0cdJAUX0T0ECq32N+AQZZZt5D6DQwivg9IYEnmE/OowZEMm64w +smOvpgRVHTZfPd15qIlfyDEYOQuCdJuF3x6ywYtvaJeEcATwdmCGNP1QUAJqleMBAaIEQm PHNvUK9nccMDJB1oWmtkYH13Ynbm6Lync2bLxd7jFHe9nVBGF+ysqVGaIAgfZXXbTvVr8E3 esAD+701pyMVXQYid8emA== UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:onK802s1BM4=;qOQhUjP40kU/EmzLVQWGAL5m6+N LkV+w8b/nRqYCGG+z6OMcwsNg/N7enAQtcSq4C6G3ZP1PMEN5REMkoxdxjg/DRCDG23WsughU 8b83712Los6t2BY7m19BcPGg9WTBrLdDXHfWMO21LYlvTgxBksv5k0U2U3i7sqHb+s5Gr92PM 5thDmsZKfMy277I1DZgOlLpwuShm5rkcXCXHZpMbP/R7qX1mLMpy0oM6q9MqJ/EROBf8rFi37 4b5YzozIHXHYNBtua/RlbyfhZwUmlnuZGK2eOM4W6s8NaOcOwnW2s/Hp0J5lVYJiq1PwEmj5u KGuIJaIrsLmJFFDMqcZnUwxYN65JRVyJqaEpfPkoyXkLU03A2ro9xQphNH4ub/4sJe5b9CrBU DPEpWbO+xAd5zcZufm8idlq6TBPiZWU4xsXcIQEy8ZmOSevNh7ej7uXY9XFD1sI4vocnFKInY YQEfDlSx97CrkBqACc+r3/uvsP2iR18NsybvbSBI9nKUn0EYP1pUx37j0FgZKs7wbLD9dAJsX 6ZMI70QgmRLv3X9c+nu6kwKDMbOyJyF3JowAcj8bf5G82sRU5q8cTNeglPYD+U0qjrj8PJza0 QnCh5GkldQ+LZpoIqb2cR9/+qI5ijSidoy98H7iSH6IbQ3kYnFEf695oCkmXVAMA9VFgedqLG /J0eL2rpRm1CkbG9cBge2y2c7X/YP2VVr2kWcT/Tql0epFrBHlCHnp1UIXxHBUca+dKF3j7TI 7j0kBgYChZQ6nrHYLycf7AinVZRQJYBjlGG+sb5szDG7F2in12sNrZKWM26Ur6ZkFhFp9Cj3 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.72.192.78; envelope-from=arne_bab@web.de; helo=mout.web.de X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:324429 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Richard Stallman writes: > > It is a good editor without any pre-configuration (it even ships > > org-mode). But to be a good Web-IDE, C++ or Scheme programming > > environment, Server automation plattform, and so forth, it requires > > configuration. > > Between there to what follows > > > Which might be a reason why it is discovered by writers, and why > > Spacemacs and Doom capture new people. > > there is an yawning gulf. My imagination can't get me from one to the > other. Can you please explain how to cross? > > You listed Web-IDE, C++ or Scheme programming environment, and Server > automation plattform as kinds of work a user might want Emacs set up > for. Choosing Spacemacs first, does it do some of those three things? > Does Doom do some of those three things? Yes: both Spacemacs and Doom provide ready-made configurations that can be activated to get an environment optimized for that task. > Aldo, when you say that each of them requires "configuration", could > you make that more concrete? What sort of configuration does "Web > IDE" require? What sort for Scheme programming environment? And so > on. I'm not asking for all the details, just an overall idea. Activating the correct set of modes, installing some packages, tweaking some customizations. > Could we easily add those missing kinds of configuration to Emacs? > If we did, would that make Emacs competitive with Spacemacs and Doom? That=E2=80=99s the point, yes: improving the newcomer experience of regular Emacs. But note that Spacemacs and Doom are simply configurations of Emacs, though pretty far from Vanilla Emacs. > so that it is necessary to choose which one to install. > > Is that what people assume? If people do, why so? Why can't > users select one at run time? I do not assume that. It=E2=80=99s rather that a C++ IDE and a writing syst= em and Scheme Programming and a Web-IDE have a lot of overlap, so some of the modes they use are the same, sometimes with a bit different setup. For long-time users that=E2=80=99s great: all the different things interact nicely. That=E2=80=99s something not found elsewhere. But for new users it means that they can=E2=80=99t just activate the C++-mo= de, but instead they have to track down the right configuration options. There are already some optimized setups for C++ (and for others, too), but which one of these are good for the specific task is hard to figure out and they are not really discoverable from Emacs. And that=E2=80=99s als= o a step that most users today won=E2=80=99t do. They see that Emacs doesn=E2= =80=99t solve their current problem out of the box and switch to a program that does. Best wishes, Arne =2D-=20 Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein, ohne es zu merken. draketo.de --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQJEBAEBCAAuFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAmcGJysQHGFybmVfYmFi QHdlYi5kZQAKCRAT741FJAPD69c9EAC5sFoCD3L8NQ1BAOLrphetovtZgX0x7Oaq 2IuV+yBNEwYR1W372z8S9TeCHaoCBjIPRNoIRPVPjojuQGG2Ady5WtBjl8PF3yUw ek1tQkt52eLrXLxIuGgmX1RXDdBEM528oel3YY5pXkmQI+t1861+JC1diRnuy5aT A2MfvA91B+a0dU91RwkspgurqKl6ITpPGGZQIP/apZ7Z/kmbv6HMvJTtaV5gWO5l Z7wg+UWBdgM/CBuway5Iygaal2M4OMJeW6d/b47Fv1Fb3QDoTgv/hldGv3Xrbc2D DxiRBmUIrSJOGreTk9NVUTTT147s6gEik1CG9Th/YWGfdGTTO8I/JwLmqOEFmfUo 95U10ieYHox/XSd8yKWZoaMiOTrmDg4UGDOKNpuIxBhjNx8/MPJ4Egp40mkffB+X QwEnW7SVfFT9EVW36Ai5z78WBoNltI+2NnIgXr6x6/22b+98mXF9ilvvCq8C8RKP gAE2VJpe9z1RyW/gz0rvdLUpKYn7flfJmBvQSl+6C936ouWKbA6llcf144v7jPAJ ewUFNTM8b6CuOx1Xy3vwrkzfGl6Zsqpev+aCJVHb7d+Ra8mOFxsvk8MbMsDv2LIG X/X4vdxpHJ7CsFE46zMX4E1sX9bEwbtKR5Iorf53bHwlnooTicMbrHSMk5NoJVhX FCqa3jgNQojEBAEBCAAuFiEE3Si95tmHXKvOSosd3M8NswvBBUgFAmcGJysQHGFy bmVfYmFiQHdlYi5kZQAKCRDczw2zC8EFSNG+BACKi19MtDOaFeqJyah3KPIavcji N9ASE29POG2dKBUDpHCISJkYVSOoZHziWXCNKd1u+6P8eCqRMfrvehyo2nxgG0uU ATR0oXdYdzxjuusi4hoa30jvmvuVPV9zAxniJJ8wIwD6MSvNHzmlyDlmK5BZysNI 3HGVAEyLBop7Tv8tMA== =P8ph -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--