Should not tutorial always use the default global map?

Should not tutorial always use the default global map?

[Lennart Borgman]

I just had a look at the Tutorial. No big success, because my key 
bindings does not work with the tutorial. Should not the Tutorial always 
use the default global map?

Re: Should not tutorial always use the default global map?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 02:38:00 +0100
> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se>
> 
> I just had a look at the Tutorial. No big success, because my key 
> bindings does not work with the tutorial. Should not the Tutorial always 
> use the default global map?

If you know Emacs enough to change the default key bindings, you don't
need the Tutorial.

Re: Should not tutorial always use the default global map?

[Jay Belanger]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 02:38:00 +0100
>> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se>
>>
>> I just had a look at the Tutorial. No big success, because my key
>> bindings does not work with the tutorial. Should not the Tutorial always
>> use the default global map?
>
> If you know Emacs enough to change the default key bindings, you don't
> need the Tutorial.

The person who changed the bindings isn't necessarily the person
reading the tutorial.

Re: Should not tutorial always use the default global map?

[Lennart Borgman]

Jay Belanger wrote:

>Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>  
>
>>>Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 02:38:00 +0100
>>>From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se>
>>>
>>>I just had a look at the Tutorial. No big success, because my key
>>>bindings does not work with the tutorial. Should not the Tutorial always
>>>use the default global map?
>>>      
>>>
>>If you know Emacs enough to change the default key bindings, you don't
>>need the Tutorial.
>>    
>>
>
>The person who changed the bindings isn't necessarily the person
>reading the tutorial.
>  
>
Yes, that is what I meant.

Re: Should not tutorial always use the default global map?

[David Kastrup]

Jay Belanger <belanger@truman.edu> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>>> Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 02:38:00 +0100
>>> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se>
>>>
>>> I just had a look at the Tutorial. No big success, because my key
>>> bindings does not work with the tutorial. Should not the Tutorial always
>>> use the default global map?
>>
>> If you know Emacs enough to change the default key bindings, you don't
>> need the Tutorial.
>
> The person who changed the bindings isn't necessarily the person
> reading the tutorial.

Then the person who changed the bindings should be drawn and quartered
for changing the other person's bindings, or the person reading the
tutorial should be chastized for copying other people's
initializiation files indiscriminately.

I doubt that this case is common enough to warrant "if this is not the
case, try using emacs -Q for calling Emacs" at the top of the file.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Should not tutorial always use the default global map?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
> Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 12:12:36 +0100
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> >> If you know Emacs enough to change the default key bindings, you don't
> >> need the Tutorial.
> >
> > The person who changed the bindings isn't necessarily the person
> > reading the tutorial.
> 
> Then the person who changed the bindings should be drawn and quartered
> for changing the other person's bindings

Indeed.

Re: Should not tutorial always use the default global map?

[Lennart Borgman]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>>From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
>>Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 12:12:36 +0100
>>Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>If you know Emacs enough to change the default key bindings, you don't
>>>>need the Tutorial.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>The person who changed the bindings isn't necessarily the person
>>>reading the tutorial.
>>>      
>>>
>>Then the person who changed the bindings should be drawn and quartered
>>for changing the other person's bindings
>>    
>>
>
>Indeed.
>  
>
If we perhaps would just for this time let him/her go away and as an 
example for humankind be more friendly we could for example add this two 
lines at the end of `help-with-tutorial':

    (make-local-variable 'emulation-mode-map-alists)
    (setq emulation-mode-map-alists nil)

This would let the tutorial work just as it is supposed to do. We could 
also add a line at the top explaining this. Anyone more than me for this 
peaceful solution?

Re: Should not tutorial always use the default global map?

[David Kastrup]

Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> writes:

> If we perhaps would just for this time let him/her go away and as an
> example for humankind be more friendly we could for example add this
> two lines at the end of `help-with-tutorial':
>
>     (make-local-variable 'emulation-mode-map-alists)
>     (setq emulation-mode-map-alists nil)
>
> This would let the tutorial work just as it is supposed to do. We
> could also add a line at the top explaining this. Anyone more than me
> for this peaceful solution?

There is no point in a tutorial that behaves differently from the rest
of the editor.  People want to learn how to use Emacs, not how to walk
through the tutorial.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Should not tutorial always use the default global map?

[Lennart Borgman]

David Kastrup wrote:

>Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> writes:
>
>  
>
>>If we perhaps would just for this time let him/her go away and as an
>>example for humankind be more friendly we could for example add this
>>two lines at the end of `help-with-tutorial':
>>
>>    (make-local-variable 'emulation-mode-map-alists)
>>    (setq emulation-mode-map-alists nil)
>>
>>This would let the tutorial work just as it is supposed to do. We
>>could also add a line at the top explaining this. Anyone more than me
>>for this peaceful solution?
>>    
>>
>
>There is no point in a tutorial that behaves differently from the rest
>of the editor.  People want to learn how to use Emacs, not how to walk
>through the tutorial.
>
The tutorial is a tutorial for using Emacs in its "default mode", not a 
tutorial for Emacs in other ways. So I think there is a point, but you 
have to make it clear for the user.

An alternative to my above proposal is to mention this in the beginning 
of the tutorial and put a note in the buffer if Emacs seems to have 
other keymaps in use.

Re: Should not tutorial always use the default global map?

[Richard M. Stallman]

    If we perhaps would just for this time let him/her go away and as an 
    example for humankind be more friendly we could for example add this two 
    lines at the end of `help-with-tutorial':

	(make-local-variable 'emulation-mode-map-alists)
	(setq emulation-mode-map-alists nil)

We were talking about modified global bindings.  Now you've raised a
different case: use of an emulator.

There's nothing we can do about modified global bindings in general.
However, if emulation modes are enabled, the tutorial command could
display a message like this:

    You are using the .... emulation modes, which will override some of
    the global bindings.  The behavior of Emacs with these modes will mot
    match what the tutorial teaches.

    Do you want to disable these emulations modes before running the
    tutorial?

Re: Should not tutorial always use the default global map?

[Richard M. Stallman]

    The person who changed the bindings isn't necessarily the person
    reading the tutorial.

People should not give beginners nonstandard key-bindings.
If they do, we cannot help those beginners.
(Teaching them to use the standard bindings won't help them
use a modified Emacs.)