From: Bastien <bzg@altern.org>
To: dhruva <dhruvakm@gmail.com>
Cc: esr@thyrsus.com, Andreas Schwab <schwab@suse.de>,
Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com>,
Emacs Devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>,
Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com>,
Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>,
"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org>
Subject: Re: Emacs Bazaar repository
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 05:44:03 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87wsnzi7z0.fsf@bzg.ath.cx> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <e3f230850803180300r452bc83dr37d4586626f05d89@mail.gmail.com> (dhruva's message of "Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:30:00 +0530")
dhruva <dhruvakm@gmail.com> writes:
> I just hope it the decision is based on technical facts rather than
> affiliations and emotions...
I think the right dimension to consider is the social one.
The assumption in the discussion so far has been namely this one: it is
possible to use a dVCS instead of the current CVS without switching to a
new project workflow. Even better: most dVCS are so flexible that you
can adapt your project workflow _after_ you start using one of them.
This has been specifically stated in Stephen J. Turnbull's post (from
January 08):
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/86530
> Thus I suggest that the project workflow discussion be postponed until
> the core stakeholders are satisfied that the new tools are functioning
> stably in the current workflow. This will take only a month, at most
> two, once the tools are chosen. As you point out, a big advantage of
> a dVCS is the flexibility of the workflow even after it is installed.
> There is no big loss to waiting a bit, and a potential large gain: the
> improved understanding of the tools that the core stakeholders will
> have.
... and this is clearly *true* when the use of the dVCS system is not
problematic /per se/.
Now we are in a situation where the decision for the dVCS has been made
(bzr) and yet this decision is not satisfactory for many of us.
So instead of trying to convince 120 developpers to use bzr in its
current unsatisfactory state, maybe it's time to open the discussion
about the project workflow, and see if the number of people to convince
cannot be reduced by such a discussion.
Now referring to Gregory Collins' post[1] about the different workflows,
I think the current workflow for Emacs would be translated into a mix of
the "star" topology (where many developers are entitled to write in any
part of the codebase) and the "Lieutenant" topology (where the majority
of developers are responsible for subsystems.)
This would mean that some core developers have access to all the code,
and need to agree about when bzr is good enough, and other developers
are free to use whatever they want, provided that they send patches in
the form that the core developers prefer.
I guess at most 25% of the current 120 developers would need to have
access to all the code. The rest would be responsible for a limited
part -- either a large directory like Gnus or a single Elisp file.
Of course, it would be easier if all the Lieutenants were using bzr,
because the core team would just need to pull from the lieutenants
repositories. But the only true requisit is that lieutenants keep
pulling from the Emacs codebase and make sure the code they are
responsible for works correctly with the latest Emacs code.
We spent time learning that the radical change with dVCS is that
they move the constraints for the workflow from the technical to
the social dimension. It's strange that the discussion about bzr
is just a technical one, without consideration about the social
change this already calls for.
Notes:
[1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/86503
--
Bastien
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2008-03-19 5:44 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 236+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2008-03-12 23:41 Emacs Bazaar repository Jason Earl
2008-03-13 1:48 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-13 1:52 ` dhruva
2008-03-13 2:26 ` Bastien
2008-03-13 2:28 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-13 3:12 ` dhruva
2008-03-13 4:06 ` Karl Fogel
2008-03-13 4:11 ` Jonathan Lange
2008-03-29 1:00 ` Xavier Maillard
2008-03-13 15:30 ` Karl Fogel
2008-03-13 15:58 ` dhruva
2008-03-13 16:50 ` Jason Earl
2008-03-13 20:18 ` How to spell "commit" [was: bikeshedding bzr (or similar) :] Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-13 4:09 ` Emacs Bazaar repository Karl Fogel
2008-03-13 4:15 ` Jonathan Lange
2008-03-13 4:30 ` Jonathan Lange
2008-03-14 1:11 ` Dan Nicolaescu
2008-03-14 1:51 ` Jason Earl
2008-03-14 5:10 ` Jonathan Lange
2008-03-13 9:58 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-13 22:13 ` Jonathan Lange
2008-03-14 10:27 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-14 10:36 ` David Kastrup
2008-03-13 5:08 ` Jason Earl
2008-03-13 10:39 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-03-13 14:45 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-13 4:19 ` Eric Hanchrow
2008-03-13 5:20 ` Jason Earl
2008-03-13 8:04 ` dhruva
2008-03-13 9:04 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2008-03-13 9:41 ` David Kastrup
2008-03-13 12:08 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2008-03-13 23:46 ` Jonathan Lange
2008-03-14 2:52 ` dhruva
2008-03-14 3:00 ` Jason Earl
2008-03-14 3:03 ` Martin Pool
2008-03-14 5:36 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-14 7:03 ` Martin Pool
2008-03-15 4:44 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-14 10:30 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-14 15:02 ` Giorgos Keramidas
2008-03-13 11:20 ` James Westby
2008-03-13 16:37 ` Jason Earl
2008-03-13 7:43 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2008-03-13 8:49 ` Jason Earl
2008-03-13 9:07 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2008-03-13 13:11 ` Aaron Bentley
2008-03-13 11:43 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-13 11:55 ` David Kastrup
2008-03-14 9:58 ` Matthieu Moy
2008-03-14 10:42 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-14 12:24 ` Matthieu Moy
[not found] ` <8562053f49b38b1584b86e1e4d1ec6e6, vpqbq5htrwx.fsf@bauges.imag.fr>
2008-03-14 12:42 ` David Ingamells
2008-03-14 13:05 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-14 12:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-03-14 8:23 ` John Arbash Meinel
2008-03-14 13:32 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-14 13:39 ` James Westby
2008-03-14 14:13 ` Matthieu Moy
2008-03-14 14:30 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-14 14:37 ` Nicholas Allen
2008-03-14 16:17 ` David Kastrup
2008-03-14 16:32 ` Daniel Mark Watkins
2008-03-14 15:15 ` David Allouche
2008-03-14 15:21 ` James Westby
2008-03-14 15:43 ` Matthieu Moy
2008-03-14 13:35 ` David Kastrup
2008-03-14 13:44 ` James Westby
2008-03-14 13:59 ` David Kastrup
2008-03-14 14:09 ` James Westby
2008-03-14 14:29 ` Nicholas Allen
2008-03-15 0:39 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-15 10:30 ` James Westby
2008-03-15 12:30 ` James Westby
2008-03-14 23:34 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-17 10:41 ` Matthieu Moy
2008-03-17 12:39 ` Sergei Organov
2008-03-18 1:48 ` Dan Nicolaescu
2008-03-18 2:13 ` dhruva
2008-03-18 4:03 ` Karl Fogel
2008-03-18 5:00 ` dhruva
2008-03-18 5:40 ` Jonathan Lange
2008-03-18 9:17 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-18 10:00 ` dhruva
2008-03-19 5:44 ` Bastien [this message]
2008-03-19 9:42 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-03-19 14:04 ` Bastien
2008-03-19 14:49 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-03-19 15:30 ` Bastien
2008-03-29 1:00 ` Xavier Maillard
2008-03-18 16:50 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-18 18:15 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-03-20 14:00 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-20 14:10 ` Jason Rumney
2008-03-20 15:33 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-20 20:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-03-21 12:51 ` dhruva
2008-03-29 1:00 ` Xavier Maillard
2008-03-18 19:31 ` Mike Mattie
2008-03-18 19:27 ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-18 20:05 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-18 20:26 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2008-03-22 4:23 ` Michael Olson
2008-03-22 11:18 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2008-03-24 6:19 ` Michael Olson
2008-03-25 9:36 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2008-03-20 1:04 ` Jonathan Lange
2008-03-18 20:58 ` Brian Cully
2008-03-18 21:13 ` Mike Mattie
2008-03-18 21:45 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-18 22:02 ` Jonathan Lange
2008-03-19 1:21 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-18 23:18 ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-18 23:46 ` Nick Roberts
2008-03-19 0:13 ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-19 0:17 ` Mike Mattie
2008-03-19 1:14 ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-19 0:12 ` Johannes Weiner
2008-03-26 7:56 ` David Kastrup
2008-03-27 22:22 ` Johannes Weiner
2008-03-29 1:00 ` Xavier Maillard
2008-03-14 12:56 ` dhruva
2008-03-14 13:10 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-14 13:23 ` dhruva
2008-03-14 13:26 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-14 14:19 ` Matthieu Moy
2008-03-14 14:29 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-15 0:43 ` Jonathan Rockway
2008-03-15 14:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-03-15 15:06 ` dhruva
2008-03-15 0:44 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-17 10:43 ` Matthieu Moy
2008-03-14 22:26 ` Martin Geisler
2008-03-15 12:09 ` dhruva
2008-03-15 21:32 ` Martin Geisler
2008-03-25 21:46 ` Giorgos Keramidas
2008-03-19 10:50 ` Sascha Wilde
2008-03-14 13:03 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-14 14:24 ` Matthieu Moy
2008-03-14 14:41 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-14 14:46 ` Jelmer Vernooij
2008-03-14 15:15 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-15 0:49 ` Harald Meland
2008-03-14 18:04 ` Dan Nicolaescu
2008-03-14 19:42 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-14 19:47 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-14 20:01 ` Mathias Dahl
2008-03-14 20:06 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-14 21:43 ` Karl Fogel
2008-03-15 0:00 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-13 20:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-03-14 10:23 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-14 3:56 ` Forest Bond
2008-03-14 10:32 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-14 11:28 ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-14 22:23 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-14 23:49 ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-14 4:52 ` Jonathan Lange
2008-03-14 6:21 ` Dan Nicolaescu
2008-03-14 6:33 ` Alexander Belchenko
2008-03-14 7:16 ` Dan Nicolaescu
2008-03-14 9:18 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-03-14 10:08 ` Matthew D. Fuller
2008-03-14 10:14 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-03-19 16:31 ` Nicholas Allen
2008-03-14 10:35 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-14 10:37 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-14 11:30 ` Matt Nordhoff
2008-03-29 1:00 ` Xavier Maillard
2008-03-13 13:07 ` Andrea Russo
2008-03-14 9:16 ` Nicholas Allen
2008-03-13 14:18 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-14 18:08 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-14 18:35 ` Jason Earl
2008-03-14 18:51 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-14 19:15 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-14 19:32 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-14 20:12 ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-14 18:31 ` Goffredo Baroncelli
2008-03-16 18:57 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-16 19:53 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-17 15:00 ` Michael Haggerty
2008-03-17 16:37 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-16 21:47 ` Toshio Kuratomi
2008-03-18 15:43 ` Emacs repository benchmark: bzr and git Teemu Likonen
2008-03-18 15:51 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-18 16:05 ` dhruva
2008-03-19 2:53 ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-27 1:32 ` Jonathan Lange
2008-03-27 2:24 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-27 2:55 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-27 11:58 ` dhruva
2008-03-27 13:59 ` Vincent Ladeuil
2008-03-29 1:17 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-29 1:30 ` James Westby
2008-03-29 3:09 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-29 4:06 ` James Westby
2008-03-29 4:50 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-29 1:00 ` Xavier Maillard
2008-03-29 4:34 ` David Cournapeau
2008-03-31 0:00 ` Xavier Maillard
2008-03-29 1:00 ` Xavier Maillard
2008-03-29 9:19 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-29 9:58 ` David Kastrup
2008-03-29 10:13 ` dhruva
2008-03-29 10:26 ` David Kastrup
2008-03-31 0:00 ` Xavier Maillard
2008-03-29 14:55 ` Randal L. Schwartz
2008-03-29 16:35 ` Óscar Fuentes
2008-03-29 18:13 ` tomas
2008-03-29 21:05 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-30 5:49 ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-30 5:49 ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-30 6:25 ` Jonathan Rockway
2008-03-30 19:56 ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-31 0:00 ` Xavier Maillard
2008-03-18 16:19 ` Matthieu Moy
2008-03-19 9:43 ` Teemu Likonen
2008-03-18 16:02 ` Matthieu Moy
2008-03-18 16:33 ` dhruva
2008-03-18 18:41 ` Jonathan Corbet
2008-03-19 1:40 ` dhruva
2008-03-18 21:04 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-03-18 17:11 ` Teemu Likonen
2008-03-18 17:43 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-18 18:20 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-03-18 16:43 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-18 19:19 ` Teemu Likonen
2008-03-18 20:22 ` James Westby
2008-03-19 11:37 ` Emacs repository benchmark: bzr and git (rerun) Teemu Likonen
2008-03-19 12:17 ` James Westby
2008-03-19 22:39 ` Robert Collins
2008-03-19 16:41 ` Teemu Likonen
2008-03-22 17:59 ` Emacs Bazaar repository Stefan Monnier
2008-03-22 19:59 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-03-24 7:53 ` Christian Faulhammer
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