* Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar [not found] <mailman.6252.1252454441.2239.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2009-09-13 1:06 ` Dave Täht 2009-10-12 2:11 ` Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: " David Combs 2009-10-27 12:03 ` Francis Moreau 0 siblings, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Dave Täht @ 2009-09-13 1:06 UTC (permalink / raw To: help-gnu-emacs Jeff Clough <jeff@chaosphere.com> writes: > Okay, so I'm seriously considering switching from Thunderbird to Emacs > (under Windows XP) for my mail and calendar needs, but I haven't used > Emacs for either of these purposes in so long I don't know if it's > feasible, nor am I certain which modes are "best". I'm hoping that > some of you can point me in the right direction. I'd "just do it" as > a test, but I'd rather not go through a crap ton of hassle and > problems only to hear later "You should not have used foo mode for > that, bar mode is what you want". I just switched from Thunderbird to GNUS. It's taken me a month to get truly happy with it (about 29 days longer than I wanted to spend) and I still have some things left to do, but overall I'm glad I made the effort. To this end I made some compromises and changes to my assumptions in order to work with how gnus actually worked. Also, my solution is very linux specific, and not relevant, really to what you were asking about, but I gotta write this up somewhere.... After fighting with postfix + dovecot, sieve, imap, gnus, and Maildir formats for several days, I gave up, and switched to postfix, procmail and mbox format, abandoning even the thought of imap. I did several unusual things, few of which were GNUS specific, (although gnus made me do it because I could not get maildir working) but perhaps folks would find these alternatives interesting. I evaluated mh, gnus, and mews and settled on gnus as being the closest in mindset for what I wanted "(set bugs off (do what I am thinking))" 1) I adopted IPv6 for my email requirements, coupled with ca-cert certificates for authentication. This gives me a static IP address and real AAAA record in DNS so I can actually receive mail on my laptop's tunnel, wherever I am, via my stably connected secondary mx host, and I can send/receive mail directly to anyone running IPv6 on their mailhost (I've only seen bsd.org and isc.org have that turned on), or via that secondary mx exchanger. The certs get rid of sasl which I always thought was a hassle anyway. 2) Instead of IMAP I am just opening emacs frames on other X displays, against my already running emacs session. My server is my laptop, not some far off imap server. It's cool to keep all my context - especially including org-mode - available anywhere I walk in the house or around town. 3) For backups, rsync run out of cron. I'm not entirely convinced this is acceptable so I bcc another account on another mail server on sent mail. 4) For RSS, r2e, which uses rss2email to correctly *text* format most RSS feeds. I tried the in-gnus RSS reader, found that it interrupted my workflow too much, and dropped it in favor of r2e. 5) For news, Leafnode. The local nntp cache makes a huge difference in speed, and I can read news offline. I liked leafnode so much that I subscribed to lkml again via gmane, and the various gnus.* groups. 6) To get text boxes from the web into emacs and back, mozdev. 7) For calendar, org-mode. I'm not going to talk about how much more I love org mode the more time I spend in emacs. I could go on for pages about org-mode, but the javascript org-annotation-helper would be a good thing to start raving about if I did. I always found things like evolution and exchange very lightweight for complex task management. Thunderbird did it not at all. 8) chat - I dropped pidgin and adopted erc + bitlbee. Bitlbee now does skype, too. 9) Pastebin on a keystroke from any buffer. Love it. As you can tell, I *really* wanted to be able to receive mail directly to my laptop again, and handle being offline, just like in the good ole days. A lot of the above flowed from that. Writing web pages to parse the output of "batch" and multiple clustered commands struck me as more work than getting certs and ipv6 tunnels and email to work. The net benefit to my life is that I just rid myself of several applications and their relevant context switches. I would argue that I went from about 10-15% emacs usage per day to about 75%. I'm able to do things like customize my keyboard to handle my carpalness (like mapping ' to return) and not have my default keystrokes break other apps. With Emacs' abbrev mode, im turns automatically into I'm, and with auto-capitalize mode (which I put a fix in for on the wiki recently) I almost never have to hit a shift key again. Big win. You couldn't get me to switch back to any other mail client if you paid me. I love green on black text everywhere. I cleared out a lot of screen space by getting rid of menus, icons, scrollbars, fringes and other stuff that get in the way. hide-mode-line is cool, too. Supercite is great. The gpg integration is great too. rss2email has easily put 12 hours a week back into my life that I used to spend waiting for blogs to load. I'm spending 4 hours of that on netnews, which has been kind of fun in a retro sort of way. My mail is as fast now as instant messaging. Switching in or out of mail mode takes two keys, a split second, and no thought. There's no "Logging into server... checking folders... sending mail..." step at all. For the first couple weeks I kept running tail -f /var/log/mail.log just because I was scared it wasn't working. I tied mail and org mode notifications into a speech synth. I can do just about any darn thing I want to with procmail, including automagically create mailboxes for any mailing lists I might join. I had wished thunderbird would do that for a long time. And I can take my mail with me, to the beach, or the park, without having to be online, and write voluminous emails like this one. My only major open problem is somewhere in my maildir experiments my sent mail folder stopped working. :(. I'll figure it out eventually. I'm still in a losing fight with how GNUS splits windows on wide displays. I still have the more prosaic problem of expiring the mailboxes (like messages from cron and nagios) that I want to expire the way I want to expire them. I like very much the concept of expiring - or at least, automatically archiving, mail, much more than I like the idea of continuing to have 20,000+ message mailboxes as I have in gmail. Yes, I have read how to do it, but regular expressions scare me. I will try it on some smaller test mailboxes first. So far, 2000+ message mbox mailboxes have been acceptably fast on the hardware I use. mbox format + archival actually makes sense to me, although I will take a stab at Maildir again one of these days. -- Dave Taht http://the-edge.blogspot.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar 2009-09-13 1:06 ` Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar Dave Täht @ 2009-10-12 2:11 ` David Combs 2009-10-12 12:25 ` Matt Lundin ` (4 more replies) 2009-10-27 12:03 ` Francis Moreau 1 sibling, 5 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: David Combs @ 2009-10-12 2:11 UTC (permalink / raw To: help-gnu-emacs [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 7211 bytes --] A top-post: Here, someone went from Thunderbird (gui, etc) to emacs, showing what he had to do to succeed. (I include it all this once, so if expired for you, is newified again.) Question: I use mutt on my isp-shell-account, and like it, and use .1% of its capability (I think, so powerful is it). Has anyone switched from mutt to emacs (temporarily or not)? Comments? Thanks! David ------- Now "newifying" way-prior post: In article <87d45vhcuo.fsf@mahal.sjds.teklibre.org>, Dave Täht <d@teklibre.org> wrote: >Jeff Clough <jeff@chaosphere.com> writes: > >> Okay, so I'm seriously considering switching from Thunderbird to Emacs >> (under Windows XP) for my mail and calendar needs, but I haven't used >> Emacs for either of these purposes in so long I don't know if it's >> feasible, nor am I certain which modes are "best". I'm hoping that >> some of you can point me in the right direction. I'd "just do it" as >> a test, but I'd rather not go through a crap ton of hassle and >> problems only to hear later "You should not have used foo mode for >> that, bar mode is what you want". > >I just switched from Thunderbird to GNUS. It's taken me a month to get >truly happy with it (about 29 days longer than I wanted to spend) and I >still have some things left to do, but overall I'm glad I made the >effort. > >To this end I made some compromises and changes to my assumptions in >order to work with how gnus actually worked. Also, my solution is very >linux specific, and not relevant, really to what you were asking about, >but I gotta write this up somewhere.... > >After fighting with postfix + dovecot, sieve, imap, gnus, and Maildir >formats for several days, I gave up, and switched to postfix, procmail >and mbox format, abandoning even the thought of imap. > >I did several unusual things, few of which were GNUS specific, (although >gnus made me do it because I could not get maildir working) but perhaps >folks would find these alternatives interesting. I evaluated mh, gnus, >and mews and settled on gnus as being the closest in mindset for what I >wanted "(set bugs off (do what I am thinking))" > >1) I adopted IPv6 for my email requirements, coupled with ca-cert >certificates for authentication. This gives me a static IP address and >real AAAA record in DNS so I can actually receive mail on my laptop's >tunnel, wherever I am, via my stably connected secondary mx host, and I >can send/receive mail directly to anyone running IPv6 on their mailhost >(I've only seen bsd.org and isc.org have that turned on), or via that >secondary mx exchanger. > >The certs get rid of sasl which I always thought was a hassle anyway. > >2) Instead of IMAP I am just opening emacs frames on other X displays, >against my already running emacs session. My server is my laptop, not >some far off imap server. It's cool to keep all my context - especially >including org-mode - available anywhere I walk in the house or around >town. > >3) For backups, rsync run out of cron. I'm not entirely convinced this >is acceptable so I bcc another account on another mail server on sent mail. > >4) For RSS, r2e, which uses rss2email to correctly *text* format most >RSS feeds. I tried the in-gnus RSS reader, found that it interrupted my >workflow too much, and dropped it in favor of r2e. > >5) For news, Leafnode. The local nntp cache makes a huge difference in >speed, and I can read news offline. I liked leafnode so much that I >subscribed to lkml again via gmane, and the various gnus.* groups. > >6) To get text boxes from the web into emacs and back, mozdev. > >7) For calendar, org-mode. I'm not going to talk about how much more I >love org mode the more time I spend in emacs. I could go on for pages >about org-mode, but the javascript org-annotation-helper would be a good >thing to start raving about if I did. I always found things like >evolution and exchange very lightweight for complex task >management. Thunderbird did it not at all. > >8) chat - I dropped pidgin and adopted erc + bitlbee. Bitlbee now does >skype, too. > >9) Pastebin on a keystroke from any buffer. Love it. > >As you can tell, I *really* wanted to be able to receive mail directly >to my laptop again, and handle being offline, just like in the good ole >days. A lot of the above flowed from that. Writing web pages to parse >the output of "batch" and multiple clustered commands struck me as more >work than getting certs and ipv6 tunnels and email to work. > >The net benefit to my life is that I just rid myself of several >applications and their relevant context switches. I would argue that I >went from about 10-15% emacs usage per day to about 75%. I'm able to do >things like customize my keyboard to handle my carpalness (like mapping >' to return) and not have my default keystrokes break other apps. > >With Emacs' abbrev mode, im turns automatically into I'm, and with >auto-capitalize mode (which I put a fix in for on the wiki recently) I >almost never have to hit a shift key again. Big win. You couldn't get me >to switch back to any other mail client if you paid me. > >I love green on black text everywhere. > >I cleared out a lot of screen space by getting rid of menus, icons, >scrollbars, fringes and other stuff that get in the way. hide-mode-line >is cool, too. > >Supercite is great. The gpg integration is great too. > >rss2email has easily put 12 hours a week back into my life that I used >to spend waiting for blogs to load. I'm spending 4 hours of that on >netnews, which has been kind of fun in a retro sort of way. > >My mail is as fast now as instant messaging. Switching in or out of mail >mode takes two keys, a split second, and no thought. There's no "Logging >into server... checking folders... sending mail..." step at all. For the >first couple weeks I kept running tail -f /var/log/mail.log just because >I was scared it wasn't working. > >I tied mail and org mode notifications into a speech synth. > >I can do just about any darn thing I want to with procmail, including >automagically create mailboxes for any mailing lists I might join. I >had wished thunderbird would do that for a long time. > >And I can take my mail with me, to the beach, or the park, without having >to be online, and write voluminous emails like this one. > >My only major open problem is somewhere in my maildir experiments my >sent mail folder stopped working. :(. I'll figure it out eventually. > >I'm still in a losing fight with how GNUS splits windows on wide displays. > >I still have the more prosaic problem of expiring the mailboxes (like >messages from cron and nagios) that I want to expire the way I want to >expire them. I like very much the concept of expiring - or at least, >automatically archiving, mail, much more than I like the idea of >continuing to have 20,000+ message mailboxes as I have in gmail. Yes, I >have read how to do it, but regular expressions scare me. I will try it >on some smaller test mailboxes first. So far, 2000+ message mbox >mailboxes have been acceptably fast on the hardware I use. > >mbox format + archival actually makes sense to me, although I will take >a stab at Maildir again one of these days. > >-- >Dave Taht >http://the-edge.blogspot.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar 2009-10-12 2:11 ` Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: " David Combs @ 2009-10-12 12:25 ` Matt Lundin 2009-10-12 18:34 ` Dirk-Jan C. Binnema 2009-10-12 15:22 ` Joost Kremers ` (3 subsequent siblings) 4 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Matt Lundin @ 2009-10-12 12:25 UTC (permalink / raw To: help-gnu-emacs dkcombs@panix.com (David Combs) writes: > A top-post: Here, someone went from Thunderbird (gui, etc) to emacs, > showing what he had to do to succeed. (I include it all this once, so > if expired for you, is newified again.) > > Question: I use mutt on my isp-shell-account, and like it, and use .1% > of its capability (I think, so powerful is it). Has anyone switched > from mutt to emacs (temporarily or not)? Comments? Yes, I have. Both Gnus and Wanderlust are fantastic email clients. There are a lot of configuration examples online, if you want to get started with either of them. What specifically do you want to know? - Matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar 2009-10-12 12:25 ` Matt Lundin @ 2009-10-12 18:34 ` Dirk-Jan C. Binnema 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Dirk-Jan C. Binnema @ 2009-10-12 18:34 UTC (permalink / raw To: help-gnu-emacs >>>>> "Matt" == Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> writes: Matt> dkcombs@panix.com (David Combs) writes: >> A top-post: Here, someone went from Thunderbird (gui, etc) to emacs, >> showing what he had to do to succeed. (I include it all this once, so >> if expired for you, is newified again.) >> >> Question: I use mutt on my isp-shell-account, and like it, and use .1% >> of its capability (I think, so powerful is it). Has anyone switched >> from mutt to emacs (temporarily or not)? Comments? Matt> Yes, I have. Both Gnus and Wanderlust are fantastic email clients. There Matt> are a lot of configuration examples online, if you want to get started Matt> with either of them. I have too -- I moved from mutt (many years) to Wanderlust and am quite happy with it. I've been trying gnus as well, but I never succeeded in setting it up to my satisfaction. I've written a bit about it: http://emacs-fu.blogspot.com/2009/06/e-mail-with-wanderlust.html http://emacs-fu.blogspot.com/2009/09/wanderlust-tips-and-tricks.html But WL and Gnus are very powerful -- but if you only use .1% of the capabilities, it might be overkill... Although even then, the integration with the rest of my workflow is nice. mutt is a find program, but the scripting is no match for what emacs-based clients can do. Best wishes, Dirk. -- Dirk-Jan C. Binnema Helsinki, Finland e:djcb@djcbsoftware.nl w:www.djcbsoftware.nl pgp: D09C E664 897D 7D39 5047 A178 E96A C7A1 017D DA3C ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar 2009-10-12 2:11 ` Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: " David Combs 2009-10-12 12:25 ` Matt Lundin @ 2009-10-12 15:22 ` Joost Kremers 2009-10-12 16:17 ` Teemu Likonen ` (3 more replies) 2009-10-14 15:47 ` Jonathan Groll ` (2 subsequent siblings) 4 siblings, 4 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Joost Kremers @ 2009-10-12 15:22 UTC (permalink / raw To: help-gnu-emacs David Combs wrote: > Question: I use mutt on my isp-shell-account, and like it, > and use .1% of its capability (I think, so powerful is it). > Has anyone switched from mutt to emacs (temporarily or not)? > Comments? I did, a couple of years ago, switching to mutt+slrn to Gnus. I ended up switching back after a month or so. Gnus for news is fine, slrn works in much the same way, but I couldn't get used to Gnus' handling of email. Gnus treats every mail folder in the same way that it does a news group, and I simply couldn't get used to that. I've considered using one of the email clients for Emacs, but none seems to have been designed with the possibility of having more than one (IMAP)-server in mind. -- Joost Kremers joostkremers@yahoo.com Selbst in die Unterwelt dringt durch Spalten Licht EN:SiS(9) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar 2009-10-12 15:22 ` Joost Kremers @ 2009-10-12 16:17 ` Teemu Likonen 2009-10-12 17:08 ` Joost Kremers 2009-10-12 16:50 ` Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar Richard Riley ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Teemu Likonen @ 2009-10-12 16:17 UTC (permalink / raw To: help-gnu-emacs On 2009-10-12 15:22 (UTC), Joost Kremers wrote: > Gnus for news is fine, slrn works in much the same way, but I couldn't > get used to Gnus' handling of email. Gnus treats every mail folder in > the same way that it does a news group, and I simply couldn't get used > to that. Do you mean that by default it shows only new messages when you enter a mail group? If so I'd like to point out that you can configure Gnus to always show all messages if you want to. At least I feel that I can make Gnus look like a normal mail client. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar 2009-10-12 16:17 ` Teemu Likonen @ 2009-10-12 17:08 ` Joost Kremers 2009-10-12 19:12 ` Gnus for Mail (was: Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar) Reiner Steib 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Joost Kremers @ 2009-10-12 17:08 UTC (permalink / raw To: help-gnu-emacs Teemu Likonen wrote: > On 2009-10-12 15:22 (UTC), Joost Kremers wrote: > >> Gnus for news is fine, slrn works in much the same way, but I couldn't >> get used to Gnus' handling of email. Gnus treats every mail folder in >> the same way that it does a news group, and I simply couldn't get used >> to that. > > Do you mean that by default it shows only new messages when you enter a > mail group? That was the major problem, yes. I recently took another look at Gnus and noted that the manual said it is possible but cumbersome to make Gnus work like a more "standard" mail client. > If so I'd like to point out that you can configure Gnus to > always show all messages if you want to. But I'd like to keep that behaviour for news groups. (Even better would be if that behaviour is configurable for each mail folder separately, so I could read mailing lists as if they were news groups.) > At least I feel that I can make > Gnus look like a normal mail client. Another thing I didn't like about Gnus' handling of mail was the fact that you have to enter a mail folder explicitly. If mutt is started, it automatically enters the default mail folder, which is where most of my mail comes in. I have two IMAP accounts on different servers. In my current setup I have three mutt instances running inside a screen session, so that I can switch very quickly between the two IMAP servers (each opened in a separate mutt) and my local mail boxes (opened in the third mutt). I haven't found a way to replicate such a setup with Gnus. I also seem to remember that Gnus doesn't check for new mail automatically and checking for new mail manually would freeze Emacs until all groups and IMAP folders were checked, with would often take quite a long time... -- Joost Kremers joostkremers@yahoo.com Selbst in die Unterwelt dringt durch Spalten Licht EN:SiS(9) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Gnus for Mail (was: Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar) 2009-10-12 17:08 ` Joost Kremers @ 2009-10-12 19:12 ` Reiner Steib 2009-10-13 19:35 ` Gnus for Mail Ted Zlatanov 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Reiner Steib @ 2009-10-12 19:12 UTC (permalink / raw To: help-gnu-emacs On Mon, Oct 12 2009, Joost Kremers wrote: > Teemu Likonen wrote: >> If so I'd like to point out that you can configure Gnus to >> always show all messages if you want to. > > But I'd like to keep that behaviour for news groups. (Even better > would be if that behaviour is configurable for each mail folder > separately, so I could read mailing lists as if they were news > groups.) You can configure almost anything on per group or topic (by regexp, etc.). > Another thing I didn't like about Gnus' handling of mail was the > fact that you have to enter a mail folder explicitly. If mutt is > started, it automatically enters the default mail folder, which is > where most of my mail comes in. Put it in some hook... ,----[ (info "(gnus)Startup Variables") ] | `gnus-started-hook' | A hook that is run as the very last thing after starting up Gnus | successfully. `---- > I have two IMAP accounts on different servers. In my current setup I > have three mutt instances running inside a screen session, so that I > can switch very quickly between the two IMAP servers (each opened in > a separate mutt) and my local mail boxes (opened in the third > mutt). I haven't found a way to replicate such a setup with Gnus. Gnus supports multiple IMAP servers and you can display several groups at the same time as well: ,----[ (info "(gnus)Misc Article") ] | `gnus-single-article-buffer' | If non-`nil', use the same article buffer for all the groups. | (This is the default.) If `nil', each group will have its own | article buffer. `---- > I also seem to remember that Gnus doesn't check for new mail > automatically ,----[ (info "(gnus)Daemons") ] | Gnus, being larger than any program ever written (allegedly), does lots | of strange stuff that you may wish to have done while you're not | present. For instance, you may want it to check for new mail once in a | while. `---- > and checking for new mail manually would freeze Emacs until all > groups and IMAP folders were checked, with would often take quite a > long time... People facing this problem often run two Emacs instances, one for Gnus, one for the rest. Bye, Reiner. -- ,,, (o o) ---ooO-(_)-Ooo--- | PGP key available | http://rsteib.home.pages.de/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus for Mail 2009-10-12 19:12 ` Gnus for Mail (was: Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar) Reiner Steib @ 2009-10-13 19:35 ` Ted Zlatanov 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Ted Zlatanov @ 2009-10-13 19:35 UTC (permalink / raw To: help-gnu-emacs On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 21:12:40 +0200 Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> wrote: RS> On Mon, Oct 12 2009, Joost Kremers wrote: >> and checking for new mail manually would freeze Emacs until all >> groups and IMAP folders were checked, with would often take quite a >> long time... RS> People facing this problem often run two Emacs instances, one for RS> Gnus, one for the rest. It's also worth noting that Tom Tromey and Giuseppe are specifically interested in improving this aspect of Gnus with their work on multithreading Emacs. It's not done but they have made lots of progress. See emacs-devel for details. Ted ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar 2009-10-12 15:22 ` Joost Kremers 2009-10-12 16:17 ` Teemu Likonen @ 2009-10-12 16:50 ` Richard Riley 2009-10-12 17:36 ` Matt Lundin [not found] ` <mailman.8624.1255369149.2239.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 3 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Richard Riley @ 2009-10-12 16:50 UTC (permalink / raw To: help-gnu-emacs Joost Kremers <joostkremers@yahoo.com> writes: > David Combs wrote: >> Question: I use mutt on my isp-shell-account, and like it, >> and use .1% of its capability (I think, so powerful is it). >> Has anyone switched from mutt to emacs (temporarily or not)? >> Comments? > > I did, a couple of years ago, switching to mutt+slrn to Gnus. I ended up > switching back after a month or so. > > Gnus for news is fine, slrn works in much the same way, but I couldn't get used > to Gnus' handling of email. Gnus treats every mail folder in the same way that > it does a news group, and I simply couldn't get used to that. In what way did that differ from how you use any other email client? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar 2009-10-12 15:22 ` Joost Kremers 2009-10-12 16:17 ` Teemu Likonen 2009-10-12 16:50 ` Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar Richard Riley @ 2009-10-12 17:36 ` Matt Lundin [not found] ` <mailman.8624.1255369149.2239.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 3 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Matt Lundin @ 2009-10-12 17:36 UTC (permalink / raw To: help-gnu-emacs Joost Kremers <joostkremers@yahoo.com> writes: > David Combs wrote: >> Question: I use mutt on my isp-shell-account, and like it, >> and use .1% of its capability (I think, so powerful is it). >> Has anyone switched from mutt to emacs (temporarily or not)? >> Comments? > > I did, a couple of years ago, switching to mutt+slrn to Gnus. I ended > up switching back after a month or so. > > Gnus for news is fine, slrn works in much the same way, but I couldn't > get used to Gnus' handling of email. Gnus treats every mail folder in > the same way that it does a news group, and I simply couldn't get used > to that. If I'm reading the manual correctly, you can change this behavior for mail groups using group parameters: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/gnus/Group-Parameters.html (See the "display" option.) > > I've considered using one of the email clients for Emacs, but none >seems to have been designed with the possibility of having more than >one (IMAP)-server in mind. I believe Wanderlust can handle multiple IMAP servers. See the syntax for adding new IMAP groups/folders: http://www.gohome.org/wl/doc/wl_19.html#SEC19 - Matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
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* Re: Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar [not found] ` <mailman.8624.1255369149.2239.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2009-10-13 6:36 ` Tim X 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Tim X @ 2009-10-13 6:36 UTC (permalink / raw To: help-gnu-emacs Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> writes: > Joost Kremers <joostkremers@yahoo.com> writes: > >> David Combs wrote: >>> Question: I use mutt on my isp-shell-account, and like it, >>> and use .1% of its capability (I think, so powerful is it). >>> Has anyone switched from mutt to emacs (temporarily or not)? >>> Comments? >> >> I did, a couple of years ago, switching to mutt+slrn to Gnus. I ended >> up switching back after a month or so. >> >> Gnus for news is fine, slrn works in much the same way, but I couldn't >> get used to Gnus' handling of email. Gnus treats every mail folder in >> the same way that it does a news group, and I simply couldn't get used >> to that. > > If I'm reading the manual correctly, you can change this behavior for > mail groups using group parameters: > > http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/gnus/Group-Parameters.html > > (See the "display" option.) > >> >> I've considered using one of the email clients for Emacs, but none >>seems to have been designed with the possibility of having more than >>one (IMAP)-server in mind. > > I believe Wanderlust can handle multiple IMAP servers. See the syntax > for adding new IMAP groups/folders: > > http://www.gohome.org/wl/doc/wl_19.html#SEC19 > The mew emacs mail client will also handle multiple imap, pop and mbox folders. VM can also do it and as mentioned, so can gnus. My experience has been 1. VM easiest to setup. Whent for a while without any development, but things have improved over the last couple of years. 2. Mew. A little harder to setup as some of the concepts were not as intuitive/familiar as I was use to. However, once setup, it works well. 3. Gnus. Quite complex to setup and takes some time to get configured exactly as you want. However, probably the most powerful client I've ever used. Steep learning curve, but probably worth the effort if you have more complex requirements. I don't use Gnus at present because I simply didn't have the need for it anymore. I now use a much simpler setup that retrieves the mail using fetchmail (I know some are critical of fetchmail, but it has worked perfectly for me for a long time. Using it avoids temporary emacs freezes that can occur with some of the mail clients when they retrieve mail). I use procmail to sort the mail and now, I can use any of the clients to read my mail. The downside of this approach is for when you have a remote imap server where you want to manage all your mail on the remote server i.e. create new remote folders, move mail between remote folders etc. I've found mew pretty good at that, but no longer have that requirement myself. Tim -- tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar 2009-10-12 2:11 ` Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: " David Combs 2009-10-12 12:25 ` Matt Lundin 2009-10-12 15:22 ` Joost Kremers @ 2009-10-14 15:47 ` Jonathan Groll 2009-10-14 17:03 ` Gnus for Mail (was: Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar) Reiner Steib [not found] ` <mailman.8795.1255535276.2239.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2009-10-25 13:12 ` Dave Täht 4 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Jonathan Groll @ 2009-10-14 15:47 UTC (permalink / raw To: help-gnu-emacs On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 02:11:07AM +0000, David Combs wrote: >A top-post: Here, someone went from Thunderbird (gui, etc) >to emacs, showing what he had to do to succeed. >(I include it all this once, so if expired for you, is >newified again.) > >Question: I use mutt on my isp-shell-account, and like it, >and use .1% of its capability (I think, so powerful is it). >Has anyone switched from mutt to emacs (temporarily or not)? >Comments? Like you I'm a mutt user who looks longingly into gnus-land but don't know if I have the energy to make the transition. Even after setting up a basic .gnus so that I could see the mails on my local IMAP server, I still had to stumble my way along. Pressing ^ to subscribe to my local IMAP 'newsgroups' was not intuitive. Before it'll be much use to me, I realised I still need to figure out how to: (0) Work out how to NOT have to subscribe to my inbox every time I start gnus! (1) Configure my summary INBOX buffer so that it shows the columns I want and is sorted like I want (2) Get BBDB address completion working (3) Do something about mail indexing (4) Work out how to read HTML mails that people send me with w3m None of these problems are on their own insurmountable, it just requires a lot of energy, and from where I stand doesn't offer me convincing benefits over using mutt with emacs 'set' as editor. I've put a lot of effort in over the last while getting mutt to work as I like it, and the increased benefits of using GNUs may not be worth the pain involved in getting there. Or maybe they do? Cheers, Jonathan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Gnus for Mail (was: Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar) 2009-10-14 15:47 ` Jonathan Groll @ 2009-10-14 17:03 ` Reiner Steib 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Reiner Steib @ 2009-10-14 17:03 UTC (permalink / raw To: help-gnu-emacs On Wed, Oct 14 2009, Jonathan Groll wrote: > (0) Work out how to NOT have to subscribe to my inbox every time I > start gnus! This shouldn't be necessary. Maybe you are doing something wrong. > (1) Configure my summary INBOX buffer so that it shows the columns I > want and is sorted like I want ,----[ (info "(gnus)Summary Buffer Lines") ] | 3.1.1 Summary Buffer Lines | -------------------------- | | You can change the format of the lines in the summary buffer by changing | the `gnus-summary-line-format' variable. `---- ,----[ (info "(gnus)Sorting the Summary Buffer") ] | 3.10 Sorting the Summary Buffer | =============================== | | If you are using a threaded summary display, you can sort the threads by | setting `gnus-thread-sort-functions', which can be either a single | function, a list of functions, or a list containing functions and `(not | some-function)' elements. | [...] | If you are using an unthreaded display for some strange reason or | other, you have to fiddle with the `gnus-article-sort-functions' | variable. It is very similar to the `gnus-thread-sort-functions', | except that it uses slightly different functions for article | comparison. `---- > (2) Get BBDB address completion working (require 'bbdb) (bbdb-initialize 'gnus 'message) > (3) Do something about mail indexing ,----[ (info "(gnus)Searching") ] | 2.18 Searching | ============== | | * Menu: | | * nnir:: Searching on IMAP, with swish, namazu, etc. | * nnmairix:: Searching maildir, MH or mbox with Mairix. `---- > (4) Work out how to read HTML mails that people send me with w3m w3m is the default (in the current Gnus version) if w3m (the binary) and/or emacs-w3m are installed. ,----[ (info "(emacs-mime)Display Customization") ] | `mm-text-html-renderer' | This selects the function used to render HTML. The predefined | renderers are selected by the symbols `w3', `w3m'(1), `links', | `lynx', `w3m-standalone' or `html2text'. If `nil' use an external | viewer. You can also specify a function, which will be called | with a MIME handle as the argument. `---- Bye, Reiner. -- ,,, (o o) ---ooO-(_)-Ooo--- | PGP key available | http://rsteib.home.pages.de/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
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* Re: Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar [not found] ` <mailman.8795.1255535276.2239.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2009-10-14 16:10 ` Richard Riley 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Richard Riley @ 2009-10-14 16:10 UTC (permalink / raw To: help-gnu-emacs Jonathan Groll <lists@groll.co.za> writes: > On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 02:11:07AM +0000, David Combs wrote: >>A top-post: Here, someone went from Thunderbird (gui, etc) >>to emacs, showing what he had to do to succeed. >>(I include it all this once, so if expired for you, is >>newified again.) >> >>Question: I use mutt on my isp-shell-account, and like it, >>and use .1% of its capability (I think, so powerful is it). >>Has anyone switched from mutt to emacs (temporarily or not)? >>Comments? > > Like you I'm a mutt user who looks longingly into gnus-land but don't > know if I have the energy to make the transition. > > Even after setting up a basic .gnus so that I could see the mails on > my local IMAP server, I still had to stumble my way along. Pressing ^ > to subscribe to my local IMAP 'newsgroups' was not intuitive. Lack of menus or useful menus is often an emacs issue for some : but in this case the Gnus menu has an "enter servers" entry with "^" as the key. > > Before it'll be much use to me, I realised I still need to figure out > how to: > (0) Work out how to NOT have to subscribe to my inbox every time I > start gnus! Auto saves here. I dont know off hand if I enabled it. I turned off saving the .newsrc file however to speed things up. (gnus-save-newsrc-file), > (1) Configure my summary INBOX buffer so that it shows the columns I > want and is sorted like I want It can be a difficulty I agree. But there are examples in googleland and the manual. > (2) Get BBDB address completion working Hmmm. Just works here. Did you (bbdb-insinuate-gnus) ? > (3) Do something about mail indexing I used to use Mairix and recently moved to dovecots own indexing method. I have a key bound to gnus-group-make-nnir-group to search the index. The index is automatically created by dovecot in my case. > (4) Work out how to read HTML mails that people send me with w3m There are plenty of examples of this in google land and in the manual but it can be quite daunting at first sight I agree! The relevant entries for me are, I think : ;; Use emacs-w3m to render html mails and display images mm-text-html-renderer 'w3m mm-inline-text-html-with-images t mm-inline-large-images t mm-verify-option 'always mm-decrypt-option nil mm-discouraged-alternatives '("text/html" "text/richtext") mm-automatic-display '("text/html") mm-attachment-override-types '("image/.*") mm-external-terminal-program (quote urxvt) gnus-ignored-mime-types '("text/x-vcard") w3m-key-binding 'info w3m-cookie-accept-bad-cookies (quote ask) w3m-use-cookies t w3m-safe-url-regexp nil mm-w3m-safe-url-regexp nil > > None of these problems are on their own insurmountable, it just > requires a lot of energy, and from where I stand doesn't offer me > convincing benefits over using mutt with emacs 'set' as editor. I decided to bite the bullet so that I could have all the other benefits of emacs with email. Translations, tags, org-mode links, w3m, bookmarks etc etc. > I've put a lot of effort in over the last while getting mutt to work > as I like it, and the increased benefits of using GNUs may not be > worth the pain involved in getting there. Or maybe they do? I think it depends how much time you spend in emacs. I tend to live in it so it was worth the effort. I used Mutt for a while and liked it too. If it's any help and you feel like experimenting, my somewhat messy gnus file is here:- http://richardriley.net/projects/emacs/dotemacs#sec-2 And I admit its a bit of a mess and quite daunting. I need to prune it. regards r. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar 2009-10-12 2:11 ` Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: " David Combs ` (3 preceding siblings ...) [not found] ` <mailman.8795.1255535276.2239.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2009-10-25 13:12 ` Dave Täht 4 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Dave Täht @ 2009-10-25 13:12 UTC (permalink / raw To: help-gnu-emacs dkcombs@panix.com (David Combs) writes: > A top-post: Here, someone went from Thunderbird (gui, etc) > to emacs, showing what he had to do to succeed. > (I include it all this once, so if expired for you, is > newified again.) > > Question: I use mutt on my isp-shell-account, and like it, > and use .1% of its capability (I think, so powerful is it). > Has anyone switched from mutt to emacs (temporarily or not)? > Comments? > This particular thread diverged later back into discussing GNUs again, so I thought I would provide an update to what I wrote below as I've changed a few things around and am still working through some problems. After running for two months I got a boatload of very large multi-megabyte attachments from several people, and also accumulated a lot of mail in my mbox folder (>120MB). Gnus got slow. I sat down and finally figured out most of how to get maildir working, and switched to that. (Later on I figured out how to get emacs maildir co-exist with imap maildir, but I have not switched to that yet.) That, after 2 months is getting slow, but I have not (yet) implemented expiry the way that I want it to work, and I have high hopes that once that works things will be better. Also I plan to throw hardware at the problem (an intel flash drive) in the fairly near future. Also, I am trying to learn enough about emacs to profile gnus. Perhaps it can be made more co-operatively multitasking - or some of the threaded emacs work going on elsewhere will prove fruitful. The slowest thing in my setup right now is not mail but news, as I turned on nocem support. That takes a very long time to filter the news in emacs. I finally bit the bullet and installed a real news server (inn), which turned out to not be the huge hassle that I remember it to be. With that, nocem support can happen as the feed arrives, not as it is read, and I gain local newsgroups again. Where I'm eventually going with this is developing a 300mw (milliwatt!) mail and news server, several blog posts on that can be found at: http://the-edge.blogspot.com/search/label/pocobelle (As is usual with blogs, it helps to read them in reverse order) Attachments are a real problem. I'll argue that they ended up occupying over 90% of my slowest mailboxes and it is completely unnecessary to keep them in email format once read. I hope to get around to writing some sort of sane procmail filter that will strip out the attachment on incoming and save it somewhere sane (saving me a decision step, anyway) and insert an url to where it ended up. As I wrote below, the advantages of running out of Emacs itself (typing with less pain!) for me outweigh the problems with speed and interactivity. I did, while converting to maildir, try mutt. I liked it, but leaving my abbrevs and shortcuts for it simply wasn't in the cards. I have no opinion on the other mail readers for emacs. Some more comments below. >>I just switched from Thunderbird to GNUS. It's taken me a month to get >>truly happy with it (about 29 days longer than I wanted to spend) and I >>still have some things left to do, but overall I'm glad I made the >>effort. >> >>To this end I made some compromises and changes to my assumptions in >>order to work with how gnus actually worked. Also, my solution is very >>linux specific, and not relevant, really to what you were asking about, >>but I gotta write this up somewhere.... >> >>After fighting with postfix + dovecot, sieve, imap, gnus, and Maildir >>formats for several days, I gave up, and switched to postfix, procmail >>and mbox format, abandoning even the thought of imap. >> >>I did several unusual things, few of which were GNUS specific, (although >>gnus made me do it because I could not get maildir working) but perhaps >>folks would find these alternatives interesting. I evaluated mh, gnus, >>and mews and settled on gnus as being the closest in mindset for what I >>wanted "(set bugs off (do what I am thinking))" >> >>1) I adopted IPv6 for my email requirements, coupled with ca-cert >>certificates for authentication. This gives me a static IP address and >>real AAAA record in DNS so I can actually receive mail on my laptop's >>tunnel, wherever I am, via my stably connected secondary mx host, and I >>can send/receive mail directly to anyone running IPv6 on their mailhost >>(I've only seen bsd.org and isc.org have that turned on), or via that >>secondary mx exchanger. >> >>The certs get rid of sasl which I always thought was a hassle anyway. The ipv6 mail exchanger thing is working great, and several of the lists I read (notably debian) connect directly to me now, without going through intermediaries. I also got my backup mx server to run on a tiny power sipping arm box, which is pretty cool (see the pocobelle blog posts linked above) >> >>2) Instead of IMAP I am just opening emacs frames on other X displays, >>against my already running emacs session. My server is my laptop, not >>some far off imap server. It's cool to keep all my context - especially >>including org-mode - available anywhere I walk in the house or around >>town. This, too, remains great. >> >>3) For backups, rsync run out of cron. I'm not entirely convinced this >>is acceptable so I bcc another account on another mail server on sent mail. Still not satisified with this. >> >>4) For RSS, r2e, which uses rss2email to correctly *text* format most >>RSS feeds. I tried the in-gnus RSS reader, found that it interrupted my >>workflow too much, and dropped it in favor of r2e. I discovered that once I reduced most blogs I used to read to RSS that netnews became much more interesting in comparison. >> >>5) For news, Leafnode. The local nntp cache makes a huge difference in >>speed, and I can read news offline. I liked leafnode so much that I >>subscribed to lkml again via gmane, and the various gnus.* groups. I still am using leafnode. I played around a bit with leafnode2 before deciding to try to setup inn. I have not switched to inn yet. >>8) chat - I dropped pidgin and adopted erc + bitlbee. Bitlbee now does >>skype, too. And otr. Love bitlbee. Problem right now is that it doesn't do yahoo. (Patches are out there, haven't got around to applying them) >>The net benefit to my life is that I just rid myself of several >>applications and their relevant context switches. I would argue that I >>went from about 10-15% emacs usage per day to about 75%. I'm able to do >>things like customize my keyboard to handle my carpalness (like mapping >>' to return) and not have my default keystrokes break other apps. >> >>With Emacs' abbrev mode, im turns automatically into I'm, and with >>auto-capitalize mode (which I put a fix in for on the wiki recently) I >>almost never have to hit a shift key again. Big win. You couldn't get me >>to switch back to any other mail client if you paid me. >> >>I love green on black text everywhere. >> >>I cleared out a lot of screen space by getting rid of menus, icons, >>scrollbars, fringes and other stuff that get in the way. hide-mode-line >>is cool, too. >> >>Supercite is great. The gpg integration is great too. >> >>rss2email has easily put 12 hours a week back into my life that I used >>to spend waiting for blogs to load. I'm spending 4 hours of that on >>netnews, which has been kind of fun in a retro sort of way. >> >>My mail is as fast now as instant messaging. Switching in or out of mail >>mode takes two keys, a split second, and no thought. There's no "Logging >>into server... checking folders... sending mail..." step at all. For the >>first couple weeks I kept running tail -f /var/log/mail.log just because >>I was scared it wasn't working. >> >>I tied mail and org mode notifications into a speech synth. >> >>I can do just about any darn thing I want to with procmail, including >>automagically create mailboxes for any mailing lists I might join. I >>had wished thunderbird would do that for a long time. >> >>And I can take my mail with me, to the beach, or the park, without having >>to be online, and write voluminous emails like this one. >> >>My only major open problem is somewhere in my maildir experiments my >>sent mail folder stopped working. :(. I'll figure it out eventually. >> >>I'm still in a losing fight with how GNUS splits windows on wide displays. >> >>I still have the more prosaic problem of expiring the mailboxes (like >>messages from cron and nagios) that I want to expire the way I want to >>expire them. I like very much the concept of expiring - or at least, >>automatically archiving, mail, much more than I like the idea of >>continuing to have 20,000+ message mailboxes as I have in gmail. Yes, I >>have read how to do it, but regular expressions scare me. I will try it >>on some smaller test mailboxes first. So far, 2000+ message mbox >>mailboxes have been acceptably fast on the hardware I use. >> >>mbox format + archival actually makes sense to me, although I will take >>a stab at Maildir again one of these days. I got maildir working finally (I don't remember how). Getting it to co-exist with dovecot's imap was harder, but I have that running now for a test user. (I will document later). Now, as to whether I need imap or not, I don't know... I really like wandering the house with X on multiple emacs displays. -- Dave Taht http://the-edge.blogspot.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar 2009-09-13 1:06 ` Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar Dave Täht 2009-10-12 2:11 ` Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: " David Combs @ 2009-10-27 12:03 ` Francis Moreau 1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Francis Moreau @ 2009-10-27 12:03 UTC (permalink / raw To: help-gnu-emacs d@teklibre.org (Dave Täht) writes: [...] > > 5) For news, Leafnode. The local nntp cache makes a huge difference in > speed, and I can read news offline. I liked leafnode so much that I > subscribed to lkml again via gmane, and the various gnus.* groups. > Does that mean you store all LKML traffic on you machine ? I actually use news groups to avoid this so it sounds a bit weird. Thanks -- Francis ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2009-10-27 12:03 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 17+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <mailman.6252.1252454441.2239.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2009-09-13 1:06 ` Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar Dave Täht 2009-10-12 2:11 ` Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: " David Combs 2009-10-12 12:25 ` Matt Lundin 2009-10-12 18:34 ` Dirk-Jan C. Binnema 2009-10-12 15:22 ` Joost Kremers 2009-10-12 16:17 ` Teemu Likonen 2009-10-12 17:08 ` Joost Kremers 2009-10-12 19:12 ` Gnus for Mail (was: Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar) Reiner Steib 2009-10-13 19:35 ` Gnus for Mail Ted Zlatanov 2009-10-12 16:50 ` Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar Richard Riley 2009-10-12 17:36 ` Matt Lundin [not found] ` <mailman.8624.1255369149.2239.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2009-10-13 6:36 ` Tim X 2009-10-14 15:47 ` Jonathan Groll 2009-10-14 17:03 ` Gnus for Mail (was: Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar) Reiner Steib [not found] ` <mailman.8795.1255535276.2239.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2009-10-14 16:10 ` Anyone gone from mutt to Emacs? was: Re: Moving from Thunderbird to Emacs for mail and calendar Richard Riley 2009-10-25 13:12 ` Dave Täht 2009-10-27 12:03 ` Francis Moreau
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