bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also

bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also

[Jason A. Spiro]

Hi,

Please provide access to the Emacs guided tour on the Emacs' Help
menu.  Preferably as the first item on the menu, since it is more
useful than the tutorial.

Preferably by shipping the full tour as part of Emacs, and providing
shortcuts to launch it, like the Lisp code for XEmacs at
http://ftp.xemacs.org/pub/xemacs/beta/experimental/packages/guided-tour-0.52-pkg.tar.gz
does.  Or you can ship a text version of the tour, perhaps produced by
the "lynx -dump" command or some HTML-to-text converter as part of
your build procedure; but make sure to tack on a message at the
beginning telling users how to get to the full version on the Web.

Thanks in advance,
-Jason

In GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600)
 of 2009-10-15 on LENNART-69DE564
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600

-- 
Jason Spiro: software/web developer, packager, trainer, IT consultant.
I support Linux, UNIX, Windows, and more. Contact me to discuss your needs.
+1 (416) 992-3445 / www.jspiro.com

bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also

[Glenn Morris]

Previous discussion:

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00120.html

bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also

[Lennart Borgman]

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> wrote:
> Previous discussion:
>
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00120.html

There seemed to be a consensus to change part of the Help menu the way
Drew suggested:

  http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00158.html

Though Stefan and someone else thought that a menu item that opened
something in a web browser felt a bit wrong. I never understood why.
Is not that very common?

I suggest we change the Help menu as discussed there.

bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also

[Joel J. Adamson]

>>>>> "Lennart" == Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes:

    > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> wrote:
    >> Previous discussion:
    >> 
    >> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00120.html

    > There seemed to be a consensus to change part of the Help menu the
    > way Drew suggested:

    >   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00158.html

    > Though Stefan and someone else thought that a menu item that
    > opened something in a web browser felt a bit wrong. I never
    > understood why.  Is not that very common?

It may be common, but that doesn't mean it's good.  I find myself rather
unnerved when I go to a help Menu expecting to find some *help
documentation* and instead get sent to a website that acts mainly as
advertisement.

Of course in the case of Emacs it would be a link to something useful.
However, users should be made fully aware that they will be opening a
web browser.  And what would you do to make sure the browser is properly
configured?

Joel
-- 
Joel J. Adamson	-- http://www.unc.edu/~adamsonj
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
CB #3280, Coker Hall
Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3280

bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also

[Lennart Borgman]

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Joel J. Adamson <adamsonj@email.unc.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> "Lennart" == Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes:
>
>    > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> wrote:
>    >> Previous discussion:
>    >>
>    >> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00120.html
>
>    > There seemed to be a consensus to change part of the Help menu the
>    > way Drew suggested:
>
>    >   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00158.html
>
>    > Though Stefan and someone else thought that a menu item that
>    > opened something in a web browser felt a bit wrong. I never
>    > understood why.  Is not that very common?
>
> It may be common, but that doesn't mean it's good.  I find myself rather
> unnerved when I go to a help Menu expecting to find some *help
> documentation* and instead get sent to a website that acts mainly as
> advertisement.
>
> Of course in the case of Emacs it would be a link to something useful.
> However, users should be made fully aware that they will be opening a
> web browser.  And what would you do to make sure the browser is properly
> configured?


Maybe show the link in the menu title too or at least in the tool tip?
Since it is an official Emacs site people do not have to worry. And if
the link is displayed in the message buffer when trying to open the
site then it is easy to paste it if opening the web browser fails.

bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also

[Juri Linkov]

>> Previous discussion:
>>
>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00120.html
>
> There seemed to be a consensus to change part of the Help menu the way
> Drew suggested:
>
>   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00158.html
>
> Though Stefan and someone else thought that a menu item that opened
> something in a web browser felt a bit wrong. I never understood why.
> Is not that very common?
>
> I suggest we change the Help menu as discussed there.

The Web Guided Tour is an advertisement of Emacs features.
It doesn't provide any help.  So the "Help" menu is not appropriate.
We could create a new menu "Ads" ;-)

BTW, I noticed that the About screen doesn't say that the link
will start the browser (like it says on the startup screen).
Here is a fix:

Index: lisp/startup.el
===================================================================
RCS file: /sources/emacs/emacs/lisp/startup.el,v
retrieving revision 1.550
diff -u -r1.550 startup.el
--- lisp/startup.el	6 Nov 2009 05:16:28 -0000	1.550
+++ lisp/startup.el	20 Nov 2009 09:31:21 -0000
@@ -1371,7 +1371,7 @@
      :link ("Emacs Guided Tour"
 	    (lambda (button) (browse-url "http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/"))
 	    "Browse http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/")
-     "\tSee an overview of the many facilities of GNU Emacs"
+     "\tSee an overview of Emacs facilities at gnu.org"
      ))
   "A list of texts to show in the middle part of the About screen.
 Each element in the list should be a list of strings or pairs

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also

[Kevin Rodgers]

Juri Linkov wrote:
> The Web Guided Tour is an advertisement of Emacs features.
> It doesn't provide any help.  So the "Help" menu is not appropriate.
> We could create a new menu "Ads" ;-)
> 
> BTW, I noticed that the About screen doesn't say that the link
> will start the browser (like it says on the startup screen).
> Here is a fix:
> 
> Index: lisp/startup.el
> ===================================================================
> RCS file: /sources/emacs/emacs/lisp/startup.el,v
> retrieving revision 1.550
> diff -u -r1.550 startup.el
> --- lisp/startup.el	6 Nov 2009 05:16:28 -0000	1.550
> +++ lisp/startup.el	20 Nov 2009 09:31:21 -0000
> @@ -1371,7 +1371,7 @@
>       :link ("Emacs Guided Tour"
>  	    (lambda (button) (browse-url "http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/"))
>  	    "Browse http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/")
> -     "\tSee an overview of the many facilities of GNU Emacs"
> +     "\tSee an overview of Emacs facilities at gnu.org"
>       ))
>    "A list of texts to show in the middle part of the About screen.
>  Each element in the list should be a list of strings or pairs

Although I appreciate the connotation of "facilities",  I think "features"
would be better understood by curious new users.

And if you want to emphasize that the button is a link to the World Wide
Web, why not "http://www.gnu.org" instead of just "gnu.org"?

-- 
Kevin Rodgers
Denver, Colorado, USA

bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also

[Juri Linkov]

>> The Web Guided Tour is an advertisement of Emacs features.
>> It doesn't provide any help.  So the "Help" menu is not appropriate.
>> We could create a new menu "Ads" ;-)
>>
>> BTW, I noticed that the About screen doesn't say that the link
>> will start the browser (like it says on the startup screen).
>> Here is a fix:
>>
>> Index: lisp/startup.el
>> ===================================================================
>> RCS file: /sources/emacs/emacs/lisp/startup.el,v
>> retrieving revision 1.550
>> diff -u -r1.550 startup.el
>> --- lisp/startup.el	6 Nov 2009 05:16:28 -0000	1.550
>> +++ lisp/startup.el	20 Nov 2009 09:31:21 -0000
>> @@ -1371,7 +1371,7 @@
>>       :link ("Emacs Guided Tour"
>>  	    (lambda (button) (browse-url "http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/"))
>>  	    "Browse http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/")
>> -     "\tSee an overview of the many facilities of GNU Emacs"
>> +     "\tSee an overview of Emacs facilities at gnu.org"
>>       ))
>>    "A list of texts to show in the middle part of the About screen.
>>  Each element in the list should be a list of strings or pairs
>
> Although I appreciate the connotation of "facilities",  I think "features"
> would be better understood by curious new users.

I agree.

> And if you want to emphasize that the button is a link to the World Wide
> Web, why not "http://www.gnu.org" instead of just "gnu.org"?

"http://www.gnu.org" is more than twice longer than "gnu.org".

And if we write it as a full URL, it would be natural make it a link
as well, but we have the same link on the text "Emacs Guided Tour" already.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also

[Lennart Borgman]

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Juri Linkov <juri@jurta.org> wrote:
>>> Previous discussion:
>>>
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00120.html
>>
>> There seemed to be a consensus to change part of the Help menu the way
>> Drew suggested:
>>
>>   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00158.html
>>
>> Though Stefan and someone else thought that a menu item that opened
>> something in a web browser felt a bit wrong. I never understood why.
>> Is not that very common?
>>
>> I suggest we change the Help menu as discussed there.
>
> The Web Guided Tour is an advertisement of Emacs features.
> It doesn't provide any help.  So the "Help" menu is not appropriate.
> We could create a new menu "Ads" ;-)

It does not provide any tour (if you do not run it).
It does not provide any insight (if you don't want it).
It does not provide any news (if you already know).
It does not ...

You can't seriously mean that, or? ;-)

bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also

[Stefan Kangas]

Juri Linkov <juri@jurta.org> writes:

>>> Previous discussion:
>>>
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00120.html
>>
>> There seemed to be a consensus to change part of the Help menu the way
>> Drew suggested:
>>
>>   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00158.html
>>
>> Though Stefan and someone else thought that a menu item that opened
>> something in a web browser felt a bit wrong. I never understood why.
>> Is not that very common?
>>
>> I suggest we change the Help menu as discussed there.
>
> The Web Guided Tour is an advertisement of Emacs features.
> It doesn't provide any help.  So the "Help" menu is not appropriate.
> We could create a new menu "Ads" ;-)

I think this is the correct conclusion.  Does anyone object to closing
this bug?

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also

[Stefan Kangas]

Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

>> The Web Guided Tour is an advertisement of Emacs features.
>> It doesn't provide any help.  So the "Help" menu is not appropriate.
>> We could create a new menu "Ads" ;-)
>
> I think this is the correct conclusion.  Does anyone object to closing
> this bug?

No objections within 2 weeks, so I'm closing this bug.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also

[Joel J. Adamson]

>>>>> "Jason" == Jason A Spiro <jasonspiro4@gmail.com> writes:

    > Hi, Please provide access to the Emacs guided tour on the Emacs'
    > Help menu.  Preferably as the first item on the menu, since it is
    > more useful than the tutorial.

The tour shows features of Emacs, the tutorial shows you how to use the
basic editing commands.  How is one "more useful" than the other?  I
agree that the tour is more useful if you're deciding whether to use
Emacs, but if you've already installed Emacs, you need to know how to
use it in order to get at those features.

Joel
-- 
Joel J. Adamson	-- http://www.unc.edu/~adamsonj
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
CB #3280, Coker Hall
Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3280

bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also

[Lennart Borgman]

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Joel J. Adamson <adamsonj@email.unc.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> "Jason" == Jason A Spiro <jasonspiro4@gmail.com> writes:
>
>    > Hi, Please provide access to the Emacs guided tour on the Emacs'
>    > Help menu.  Preferably as the first item on the menu, since it is
>    > more useful than the tutorial.
>
> The tour shows features of Emacs, the tutorial shows you how to use the
> basic editing commands.  How is one "more useful" than the other?  I
> agree that the tour is more useful if you're deciding whether to use
> Emacs, but if you've already installed Emacs, you need to know how to
> use it in order to get at those features.


You might be showing Emacs to someone. Since it is at least on some
systems easy to install you could use the tour to decide if you want
to use Emacs for what you currently want to do. It may also give you
inspirations for new ways to use Emacs.