From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Joseph Brenner Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: line-move-visual Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 13:17:16 -0700 Message-ID: <87wru43t0z.fsf@kzsu.stanford.edu> References: <87pr07qjio.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <878w6vq7ew.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <871vcmhq79.fsf@wivenhoe.ul.ie> <580d5f23-e251-483f-9752-7e77b1ca2fb7@40g2000pry.googlegroups.com> <2a7dc148-e2cc-4681-9d8c-ccd1140aa6d7@j36g2000prj.googlegroups.com> <089883ee-0a63-4cb4-a0ec-d2fe4e71cc03@y18g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <87wruco5yq.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87wrubfd8p.fsf@rapttech.com.au> <848w6ndwn0.fsf@cs.bham.ac.uk> <87y6ekevet.fsf@rapttech.com.au> <8739wse8tq.fsf@rapttech.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1291831626 10643 80.91.229.12 (8 Dec 2010 18:07:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 18:07:06 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 08 19:07:03 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PQOPt-000747-Nv for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 19:07:01 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53422 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PQOPs-0006sw-TS for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 13:07:01 -0500 Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!postnews.google.com!news1.google.com!Xl.tags.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.posted.rawbandwidth!news.posted.rawbandwidth.POSTED!not-for-mail Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 15:16:17 -0500 Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:UsKndqueWfPDhIhCraOD1c+KO2M= Original-Lines: 38 X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.144.208.84 Original-X-Trace: sv3-M0A18eteUvDBe0Va+vYJ1qtpTGynSyZYlyG1HpvfU4tdo2J4jdtc2ZujmUn+7dQqgNoKwfZ7SzmmeW7!GmH2XVH3KFpIpf6nhympuqaTZbjaJTRzuJ1jp1r/MgLigVpnJfMZdGvzk4u2hVu25GB5SKXeJBE= X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.40 Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:178881 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:75759 Archived-At: Tim X writes: > Uday S Reddy writes: >> Tim X wrote: >>> Your arguments all suggest an environment where interfaces never change. >>> This just doesn't exist and never has. Frequently improvements and new >>> functionality require changes to existing interfaces, both programming >>> and user. >> >> That is not quite true. In the OS & network protocols world, things can never >> change essentially. We still live with the possibility of 7bit mail transport >> even though nobody knows for sure whether there are any 7bit mail transport >> systems anywhere. New protocols are designed that work around the limitations >> of the old protocols. It has taken Unix some 15 years to figure out how to >> retrofit Unicode into its byte-oriented view of the world. Things get messy >> but that is the price we pay for backward-compatibility. > I don't disagree, but the mere fact new protocols are developed to > handle the new as well as theold is in itself a change in the interface. Now you're playing semantic games. The subject under discussion is a decision where the developers intentionally messed with experienced users on the theory that they can deal with the pain. That's the kind of change we're talking about. If someone working on "ls" made a change that broke dired, you might see the situation differently. > Citing an example that shows no interface change doesn't really counter > the arguement, but citing one that has changed would seem to. Yes, the switch to unicode and utf-8 was difficult to accomplish without any pain to existing users, because of the nature of utf-8. Even if this case, many developers worked hard at making things Just Work, and they *almost* succeeded.