From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Miles Bader Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 02:57:45 +0900 Message-ID: <87wrsmully.fsf@catnip.gol.com> References: <4C3B6A8A.80105@gmx.de> <87wrt0e81n.fsf@telefonica.net> <62E9699C07054418AB66F9C5FCB54E5C@us.oracle.com> <87sk3oe3la.fsf@telefonica.net> <1154D96E7D2F401D849266F359E44BB9@us.oracle.com> <87ocecdzou.fsf@telefonica.net> <2256C17F740A425884AD551DE7758056@us.oracle.com> <87fwzodqqm.fsf@telefonica.net> <5138CDF30B2D4B778F948015614DA7BC@us.oracle.com> <87iq4ijtdy.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87bpa7uu1e.fsf@kanis.fr> <87hbjr9x71.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87d3uf9vb2.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Reply-To: Miles Bader NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1279908399 27052 80.91.229.12 (23 Jul 2010 18:06:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 18:06:39 +0000 (UTC) Cc: David Kastrup , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Lennart Borgman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 23 20:06:38 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OcMdo-0004F2-RY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 20:06:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53823 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OcMdo-0007Gb-3I for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:06:36 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=39645 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OcMdM-00079w-Tv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:06:10 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OcMdL-0000oy-EK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:06:08 -0400 Original-Received: from smtp12.dentaku.gol.com ([203.216.5.74]:49463) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OcMVI-0007c5-Dp; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:57:48 -0400 Original-Received: from 218.33.232.67.eo.eaccess.ne.jp ([218.33.232.67] helo=catnip.gol.com) by smtp12.dentaku.gol.com with esmtpa (Dentaku) id 1OcMVG-0004YJ-9a; Sat, 24 Jul 2010 02:57:46 +0900 Original-Received: by catnip.gol.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 68E43DF8A; Sat, 24 Jul 2010 02:57:45 +0900 (JST) System-Type: x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu In-Reply-To: (Lennart Borgman's message of "Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:20:44 +0200") Original-Lines: 53 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV GOL (outbound) X-Abuse-Complaints: abuse@gol.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127716 Archived-At: Lennart Borgman writes: >>>> There is absolutley no proof that CUA would 'ease' a new users >>>> experience; there is proof that it would make make the experience >>>> harder for all who are accustomed to emacs though. > > Of course there are evidence that CUA would make it easier in some > respect for new users. They would immediately be able to use the CUA > keys. I think by "evidence," he meant actual data, not suppositions. I've watched at least one CUA-accustomed complete Emacs noob learn Emacs, and who didn't seemed bothered at all by the lack of C-x/etc (they just used the menus for those things until they had become accustomed to Emacs keys). Would there have been some small gain in learning speed if C-x was available? Probably. Would that gain have been justified by the costs of supporting C-x? Arguably not. > Emacs is already mode dependent since it is using keybindings with > several steps. [That is not a mode in the normal sense -- people don't think of "oh, I'll enter C-x mode, then hit C-s," they think of the entire thing sequence as a single entity. So the downsides normally attributed to modality don't really apply.] >> To illustrate: do we really want to consider the following a suitable >> user experience for new users? =C2=A0Once they type more than 5 keys per >> second, CUA behavior will get replaced by native Emacs behavior? =C2=A0T= hat >> sort of cleverness is not predictable to a new user. > > This is an excellent example of Kim's creativity to work around the > resistance to adopt CUA bindings in Emacs. Of course this work around > is not needed any more of CUA would be made a first class citizen in > Emacs. It's certainly a clever mechanism, and it's to Kim's credit that it works as well as it does, but that doesn't make it any less of an unreliable kludge. It's _not_ something we want turned on by default. > Of course this work around is not needed any more of CUA would be made > a first class citizen in Emacs. No doubt --- but the costs of doing that (which you constantly seem to simply ignore) seem very high, and thus it is unlikely to happen. -Miles --=20 Opposition, n. In politics the party that prevents the Goverment from runni= ng amok by hamstringing it.