From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam =?UTF-8?Q?Sj=C3=B8gren?=) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#9082: Add hints to documentation of car and cdr for (e)lisp newcomers Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 22:28:06 +0200 Organization: koldfront - analysis & revolution, Copenhagen, Denmark Message-ID: <87wrfkboa1.fsf@topper.koldfront.dk> References: <8762n4ewfx.fsf@topper.koldfront.dk> <87k4bkd61a.fsf@topper.koldfront.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1310676113 27147 80.91.229.12 (14 Jul 2011 20:41:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 20:41:53 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 9082@debbugs.gnu.org To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , Glenn Morris Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jul 14 22:41:49 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QhSjE-0005AE-TI for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 22:41:49 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51492 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QhSjD-0002fq-KT for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 16:41:47 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41283) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QhSWy-0007Js-21 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 16:29:11 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QhSWt-000631-Ij for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 16:29:07 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:40032) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QhSWt-00062x-9I for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 16:29:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QhSWs-0008QT-Bx; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 16:29:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam =?UTF-8?Q?Sj=C3=B8gren?=) Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 20:29:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9082 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: fixed Original-Received: via spool by 9082-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9082.131067529532329 (code B ref 9082); Thu, 14 Jul 2011 20:29:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 9082) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Jul 2011 20:28:15 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QhSW6-0008PO-3e for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 16:28:14 -0400 Original-Received: from 2505ds5-by.0.fullrate.dk ([95.166.24.143] helo=topper.koldfront.dk) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QhSW4-0008PD-DQ for 9082@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 16:28:13 -0400 Original-Received: by topper.koldfront.dk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C29A250FA70D; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 22:28:06 +0200 (CEST) X-Now-Playing: Talkin' World War III Blues, Live 1964 (cd 2) (Bob Dylan) X-Hashcash: 1:21:110714:9082@debbugs.gnu.org::4ziS8WxvCsrTYdW4:000000000000000000000000000000000000000000gG4 X-Hashcash: 1:21:110714:rgm@gnu.org::rxOTkxxGfi5fxrGI:000000CY0s X-Hashcash: 1:21:110714:larsi@gnus.org::sApAJqlKDqnG5oMi:000FLik X-Face: )qY&CseJ?.:=8F#^~GcSA?F=9eu'{KAFfL1C3/A&:nE?PW\i65"ba0NS)97, Q(^@xk}n4Ou rPuR#V8I(J_@~H($[ym:`K_+]*kjvW>xH5jbgLBVFGXY:(#4P>zVBklLbdL&XxL\M)%T}3S/IS9lMJ ^St'=VZBR (Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen's message of "Thu, 14 Jul 2011 22:09:24 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 16:29:02 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:49083 Archived-At: I am sorry, but this is depressing. Only a newbie would look up the documentation of car and cdr. This newbie finds this documentation: "(car LIST) Return the car of LIST." "(cdr LIST) Return the cdr of LIST." to be unhelpful to the brink of being a slap in the face. "Nyah, nyah, you don't remember what part of a cons cell is named what - and we wo-on't tell you!" Could you please consider trying to find a way to hint to the casual lisp user which function does which? I am perfectly fine with my suggestion being dismissed as meaningless and wrong, and I agree that this is stuff you learn on your first day of learning lisp. But please try to put yourself into the mind of someone who remembers the concept of those two functions, but can't remember which is which - a casual user of lisp, looking up the functions in the builtin docs. Sure, you can quickly try them, or you can figure out why the (elisp)Cons cells link doesn't work in your emacs-snapshot instance and read up on it there, or you can find the answer on wikipedia - but just a little hint in the documentation of the functions we are talking about would have quenched the frustration instantly. The target demographic for these texts surely would be someone for whom "car returns the car, cdr returns the cdr" isn't helping? I hate to be such a bikeshedder, but I think that you two are way too good at lisp to have reached the right solution here. Anyway, thanks for your time. Best regards, Adam --=20 "Good car to drive after a war" Adam Sj=F8gren asjo@koldfront.dk