all messages for Emacs-related lists mirrored at yhetil.org
 help / color / mirror / code / Atom feed
* Icicles stealing keybindings
@ 2015-01-03  1:10 Marcin Borkowski
  2015-01-03  2:17 ` Drew Adams
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Marcin Borkowski @ 2015-01-03  1:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Help Gnu Emacs mailing list

OK,

so I'm learning Icicles, and I like it quite a bit.  I have one problem,
however: it steals *lots* of keybindings I'm accustomed to.  Of course,
if Org-mode uses C-c ', it's Org-mode's fault (AFAIK, newer versions of
Org change some of the keybindings, but I'm not sure exactly), since
(AFAIK, again) it is reserved for minor modes.  What got me a bit angry,
after finally installing Emacs 25, is that Icicles steals C-x SPC.

Now obviously I'm aware that you can change all keybindings, including
Icicles' ones; I'm just curious what are people's practices.  Does
anyone more experienced than me have some reasonable solution of the
conflicting keys problem, so that I don't have to reinvent the wheel?

(Also, now that I use Icicles, I do not understand why would anyone use
Ido.  But that's another story.)

TIA,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski
http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski
Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science
Adam Mickiewicz University



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

* RE: Icicles stealing keybindings
  2015-01-03  1:10 Icicles stealing keybindings Marcin Borkowski
@ 2015-01-03  2:17 ` Drew Adams
  2015-01-03  9:28   ` Marcin Borkowski
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2015-01-03  2:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Marcin Borkowski, Help Gnu Emacs mailing list

> so I'm learning Icicles, and I like it quite a bit.  I have one
> problem, however: it steals *lots* of keybindings I'm accustomed
> to.

If you set option `icicle-top-level-keybindings' to nil then
Icicles will not bind *any* top-level key bindings.

By default, it will still bind keys in minibuffer keymaps, but
there are options that make it simple to prevent that as well.
(Nearly all such keys are unbound in vanilla Emacs minibuffer maps
anyway, so there's nothing really being "stolen" here.)

See the Icicles doc, section ... (wait for it) ... `Key Bindings'.

Hit `M-?' from the minibuffer, then click the link `[Icicles Doc,
Part 2]'.  If Emacs Wiki were not down currently then I would
point you also to http://www.emacswiki.org/Icicles_-_Key_Bindings
(I think that's the URL).

> Of course, if Org-mode uses C-c ', it's Org-mode's fault (AFAIK,
> newer versions of Org change some of the keybindings, but I'm not
> sure exactly), since (AFAIK, again) it is reserved for minor modes.

Yes, `C-c '' is reserved for minor modes.  But you can still have
a conflict among different minor modes for keys like that one.

It is trivial to remove that binding for Icicles or to assign a
different binding.  Again: option `icicle-top-level-key-bindings'.

> What got me a bit angry, after finally installing Emacs 25, is
> that Icicles steals C-x SPC.

Don't get angry before you read the doc. ;-)

Actually, it was vanilla Emacs 24.4 that "stole" key `C-x SPC'.
It was undefined until then.  Icicles has bound it by default
since 2007.  Anyway, again: `icicle-top-level-key-bindings'.

> Now obviously I'm aware that you can change all keybindings,
> including Icicles' ones;

I think you'll find that it is particularly easy to change
Icicles key bindings.  (You don't even need to know Lisp.)

Start with the doc, section `Key Bindings', so you get an idea
what key-binding options are available. The only one you need
for top-level keys is `icicle-top-level-key-bindings'.

> ... reasonable solution of the conflicting keys problem, so
> that I don't have to reinvent the wheel?

You don't have to reinvent anything.  You just need to decide
what works for you.  Different people use different libraries
that might lead to different key conflicts.  And different
people have different preferences wrt keys.  It's up to you
what bindings you use.

> (Also, now that I use Icicles, I do not understand why would
> anyone use Ido.  But that's another story.)

Again, different folks can have different needs and different
preferences. ;-)

Sorry for your trouble.  Please spend a few minutes with
`Key Bindings' in the doc, and I think you might feel better.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

* Re: Icicles stealing keybindings
  2015-01-03  2:17 ` Drew Adams
@ 2015-01-03  9:28   ` Marcin Borkowski
  2015-01-03 18:34     ` Drew Adams
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Marcin Borkowski @ 2015-01-03  9:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Help Gnu Emacs mailing list


On 2015-01-03, at 03:17, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:

> See the Icicles doc, section ... (wait for it) ... `Key Bindings'.

OK, understood.  I'll do my homework next time.

Now the question is: where is the manual?  I hit C-h i m Icicles RET and
nothing happens.  I know of no other places to look for manuals...  (ESR
would get heart attack.)

Now, kidding aside: I use EmacsWiki as "the docs"; is there any better
(e.g., offline) place?  (What you write below is not necessarily better
for me, though I can live with it.)  What would be great for me would be
e.g. the docs in epub/mobi format, or at least a HTML file or a set of
files, so that I can put it on my kindle and read while commuting.  (In
a pinch, a PDF would do, too.)

> Hit `M-?' from the minibuffer, then click the link `[Icicles Doc,
> Part 2]'.  If Emacs Wiki were not down currently then I would
> point you also to http://www.emacswiki.org/Icicles_-_Key_Bindings
> (I think that's the URL).

Wow.  I did what you wrote here, and found myself in a strange place
called *Finder-package*.  I did C-h m, then jumped to the source file
for that strange mode (C-h m told me that it was about package docs) and
found out, that it was written by ESR himself.  I don't know what to
make of it now...

>> Of course, if Org-mode uses C-c ', it's Org-mode's fault (AFAIK,
>> newer versions of Org change some of the keybindings, but I'm not
>> sure exactly), since (AFAIK, again) it is reserved for minor modes.
>
> Yes, `C-c '' is reserved for minor modes.  But you can still have
> a conflict among different minor modes for keys like that one.

Of course.

> It is trivial to remove that binding for Icicles or to assign a
> different binding.  Again: option `icicle-top-level-key-bindings'.

Great, I didn't know about this option.

>> What got me a bit angry, after finally installing Emacs 25, is
>> that Icicles steals C-x SPC.
>
> Don't get angry before you read the doc. ;-)

;-)

> Actually, it was vanilla Emacs 24.4 that "stole" key `C-x SPC'.
> It was undefined until then.  Icicles has bound it by default
> since 2007.  Anyway, again: `icicle-top-level-key-bindings'.

"Mom, it wasn't me!  It was he who did it!" ;-)

But of course, you're right.

>> Now obviously I'm aware that you can change all keybindings,
>> including Icicles' ones;
>
> I think you'll find that it is particularly easy to change
> Icicles key bindings.  (You don't even need to know Lisp.)

Lisp is no problem, I speak (Emacs) Lisp on, say, something like
intermediate level.

> Start with the doc, section `Key Bindings', so you get an idea
> what key-binding options are available. The only one you need
> for top-level keys is `icicle-top-level-key-bindings'.
>
>> ... reasonable solution of the conflicting keys problem, so
>> that I don't have to reinvent the wheel?
>
> You don't have to reinvent anything.  You just need to decide
> what works for you.  Different people use different libraries
> that might lead to different key conflicts.  And different
> people have different preferences wrt keys.  It's up to you
> what bindings you use.

Obviously.  I just thought someone had some experience.  There are bad
keybindings, good ones and better ones.  I didn't want to use inferior
ones.  And Icicles is so huge, I even don't know exactly what I need
(since I don't know what's out there).

>> (Also, now that I use Icicles, I do not understand why would
>> anyone use Ido.  But that's another story.)
>
> Again, different folks can have different needs and different
> preferences. ;-)
>
> Sorry for your trouble.  Please spend a few minutes with
> `Key Bindings' in the doc, and I think you might feel better.

It's not you who should be sorry.  (Though I miss an Info manual,
frankly speaking.  They are so good.  It's not that they are old and bad
and browsers are new and good.  It's that browsers are not yet at this
technological level as the Info reader. ;-))

Thanks,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski
http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski
Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science
Adam Mickiewicz University



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

* RE: Icicles stealing keybindings
  2015-01-03  9:28   ` Marcin Borkowski
@ 2015-01-03 18:34     ` Drew Adams
  2015-01-03 21:23       ` Marcin Borkowski
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2015-01-03 18:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Marcin Borkowski, Help Gnu Emacs mailing list

> > See the Icicles doc, section... (wait for it)... `Key Bindings'.
> 
> OK, understood.  I'll do my homework next time.
> 
> Now the question is: where is the manual?  I hit C-h i m Icicles RET
> and nothing happens.  I know of no other places to look for manuals...
> (ESR would get heart attack.)

Sorry, I have not written a TexInfo manual.  The (`finder-mode') doc
is  available anytime in Icicle mode using `M-?' from the minibuffer.
If you happen to have library `linkd.el' installed then this doc is
hyperlinked.  You can also consult it in files `icicles-doc[12].el'.

And you can (normally) also consult it on Emacs Wiki, at
http://www.emacswiki.org/Icicles.  I am told now that the wiki should
be back up soon - it has been down for maintenance for almost a month.

> Now, kidding aside: I use EmacsWiki as "the docs"; is there any
> better (e.g., offline) place?  (What you write below is not
> necessarily better for me, though I can live with it.)

"Better" is in the eye of the beholder. ;-)  The doc on Emacs Wiki
is pretty clear, I think.  It has the advantages of showing images
and being linked to other pages of the wiki.  Reading the doc in
Emacs has its own advantages, however, which I'm sure you're aware of.

> What would be great for me would be e.g. the docs in epub/mobi
> format, or at least a HTML file or a set of files, so that I can
> put it on my kindle and read while commuting. (In a pinch, a PDF
> would do, too.)

Sorry; someone other than I will need to provide that.  That should
not be a big deal to implement, but I won't be the one to do it.
Perhaps you will someday be able to browse the Wiki with your Kindle.

> > Hit `M-?' from the minibuffer, then click the link `[Icicles Doc,
> > Part 2]'.  If Emacs Wiki were not down currently then I would
> > point you also to http://www.emacswiki.org/Icicles_-_Key_Bindings
> > (I think that's the URL).
> 
> Wow.  I did what you wrote here, and found myself in a strange place
> called *Finder-package*.  I did C-h m, then jumped to the source
> file for that strange mode (C-h m told me that it was about package
> docs) and found out, that it was written by ESR himself.  I don't
> know what to make of it now...

`finder.el' is quite old.  It is possible that only I use it for doc.

Among other things, it presents the `Commentary' section of a file
in a form that is easy to read and navigate.  I put the full doc in 
`Commentary', so you have it available as part of the source code.
The ability to use `finder-mode' with it comes for free.

The `finder'-accessed doc of some of my libraries, such as Icicles
and Bookmark+, also provides for navigation using simple hyperlinks
provided by library `linkd.el', if you happen to have that installed.

> > It is trivial to remove that binding for Icicles or to assign a
> > different binding.  Again: option `icicle-top-level-key-bindings'.
> 
> Great, I didn't know about this option.
> 
> > You don't have to reinvent anything.  You just need to decide
> > what works for you.  Different people use different libraries
> > that might lead to different key conflicts.  And different
> > people have different preferences wrt keys.  It's up to you
> > what bindings you use.
> 
> Obviously.  I just thought someone had some experience.  There are
> bad keybindings, good ones and better ones.  I didn't want to use
> inferior ones.  And Icicles is so huge, I even don't know exactly
> what I need (since I don't know what's out there).

You can start with the default Icicles keybindings.  A fair amount
of thought and experience are behind them.  In general they do not
trample on existing key bindings.  (Binding `C-x SPC' is an
exception, now that it has been appropriated for vanilla Emacs.)

But everyone's needs and preferences are different, so you might
well want to change some of the default bindings.  I think it is
better to start from the defaults than to start from zero (e.g.,
`icicle-top-level-key-bindings' = ()), but it's certainly possible
to feel that doing that makes Icicles too alien or intrusive.

> > Sorry for your trouble.  Please spend a few minutes with
> > `Key Bindings' in the doc, and I think you might feel better.
> 
> It's not you who should be sorry.  (Though I miss an Info manual,
> frankly speaking.  They are so good.  It's not that they are old and
> bad and browsers are new and good.  It's that browsers are not yet at
> this technological level as the Info reader. ;-))

FWIW, I agree.  Info can be improved, of course, and there is
talk now in emacs-devel@gnu.org of trying to do so (make it more
usable in connection with proportional fonts, make it usable by
typical web browsers, etc.).  If you can, and you would like to,
help with that incipient effort, everyone would appreciate it.

[Normally, I would just point you to the email thread about this
for emacs-devel@gnu.org.  Unfortunately, this discussion has been
going on since 2014-12-05, and has ranged far afield.  The original
thread has branched a few times, and even when it has not branched
it has wandered all around Robinson's barn.  Anyway, if you are
interested, this is the starting point of the discussion:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-12/msg00347.html
And this is the latest message, as of today:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-01/msg00025.html]

But the thing that is most important for the Emacs docs (and for
any doc) is the *content* - complete & correct (but also readable,
of course).  There too, there is always room for improvement.

Fortunately, throughout its long history Emacs has had the benefit
of a few people who took doc seriously.  Starting with Emacs (the
"self-documenting editor") itself.  (Is Emacs a person?)  And RMS.
And Eli Zaretskii.

Young blood is sorely needed for this too - not because the old
farts are wrong or out-of-date or doing a poor job, but because
no one hangs in there forever.  (There is now a long list of
outstanding doc bugs.)

To "get" Emacs is to understand the usefulness and power of a
program that communicates with you about itself, that opens itself
freely and completely.  It includes understanding the importance
software freedom and of, yup, doc.

It is no accident that Emacs was the *starting point* and remains
at the core of the "free" approach to using and developing software.
And it is no accident that RMS concentrated so much of his energy
on its ability to talk to you about itself - its doc, in particular.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

* Re: Icicles stealing keybindings
  2015-01-03 18:34     ` Drew Adams
@ 2015-01-03 21:23       ` Marcin Borkowski
  2015-01-04  0:19         ` Drew Adams
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Marcin Borkowski @ 2015-01-03 21:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Help Gnu Emacs mailing list


On 2015-01-03, at 19:34, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:

>> > See the Icicles doc, section... (wait for it)... `Key Bindings'.
>> 
>> OK, understood.  I'll do my homework next time.
>> 
>> Now the question is: where is the manual?  I hit C-h i m Icicles RET
>> and nothing happens.  I know of no other places to look for manuals...
>> (ESR would get heart attack.)
>
> Sorry, I have not written a TexInfo manual.  The (`finder-mode') doc
> is  available anytime in Icicle mode using `M-?' from the minibuffer.
> If you happen to have library `linkd.el' installed then this doc is
> hyperlinked.  You can also consult it in files `icicles-doc[12].el'.
>
> And you can (normally) also consult it on Emacs Wiki, at
> http://www.emacswiki.org/Icicles.  I am told now that the wiki should
> be back up soon - it has been down for maintenance for almost a month.

Well, for read-only access it sometimes works, sometimes not.

>> Now, kidding aside: I use EmacsWiki as "the docs"; is there any
>> better (e.g., offline) place?  (What you write below is not
>> necessarily better for me, though I can live with it.)
>
> "Better" is in the eye of the beholder. ;-)  The doc on Emacs Wiki
> is pretty clear, I think.  It has the advantages of showing images
> and being linked to other pages of the wiki.  Reading the doc in
> Emacs has its own advantages, however, which I'm sure you're aware of.

Yes, it's clear - but requires internet access.

>> What would be great for me would be e.g. the docs in epub/mobi
>> format, or at least a HTML file or a set of files, so that I can
>> put it on my kindle and read while commuting. (In a pinch, a PDF
>> would do, too.)
>
> Sorry; someone other than I will need to provide that.  That should
> not be a big deal to implement, but I won't be the one to do it.
> Perhaps you will someday be able to browse the Wiki with your Kindle.

Again: you don't need to be sorry!  I'll try to sit down and find the
right set of options for wget to download only the Icicles-related pages
from the wiki (I guess I could also leverage the fact that Emacs Wiki
runs on Oddmuse, which means I can easily get the list of all pages and
filter by the string "Icicles").  Then, converting to epub/mobi is easy
with calibri.

>> > Hit `M-?' from the minibuffer, then click the link `[Icicles Doc,
>> > Part 2]'.  If Emacs Wiki were not down currently then I would
>> > point you also to http://www.emacswiki.org/Icicles_-_Key_Bindings
>> > (I think that's the URL).
>> 
>> Wow.  I did what you wrote here, and found myself in a strange place
>> called *Finder-package*.  I did C-h m, then jumped to the source
>> file for that strange mode (C-h m told me that it was about package
>> docs) and found out, that it was written by ESR himself.  I don't
>> know what to make of it now...
>
> `finder.el' is quite old.  It is possible that only I use it for doc.
>
> Among other things, it presents the `Commentary' section of a file
> in a form that is easy to read and navigate.  I put the full doc in 
> `Commentary', so you have it available as part of the source code.
> The ability to use `finder-mode' with it comes for free.
>
> The `finder'-accessed doc of some of my libraries, such as Icicles
> and Bookmark+, also provides for navigation using simple hyperlinks
> provided by library `linkd.el', if you happen to have that installed.

Wow.  That sounds really interesting.  So do I get it right that finder
just formats the docstrings and/or comments?  Wow.  I'll look into it
someday.

>> > It is trivial to remove that binding for Icicles or to assign a
>> > different binding.  Again: option `icicle-top-level-key-bindings'.
>> 
>> Great, I didn't know about this option.
>> 
>> > You don't have to reinvent anything.  You just need to decide
>> > what works for you.  Different people use different libraries
>> > that might lead to different key conflicts.  And different
>> > people have different preferences wrt keys.  It's up to you
>> > what bindings you use.
>> 
>> Obviously.  I just thought someone had some experience.  There are
>> bad keybindings, good ones and better ones.  I didn't want to use
>> inferior ones.  And Icicles is so huge, I even don't know exactly
>> what I need (since I don't know what's out there).
>
> You can start with the default Icicles keybindings.  A fair amount
> of thought and experience are behind them.  In general they do not
> trample on existing key bindings.  (Binding `C-x SPC' is an
> exception, now that it has been appropriated for vanilla Emacs.)
>
> But everyone's needs and preferences are different, so you might
> well want to change some of the default bindings.  I think it is
> better to start from the defaults than to start from zero (e.g.,
> `icicle-top-level-key-bindings' = ()), but it's certainly possible
> to feel that doing that makes Icicles too alien or intrusive.

That's what I meant: I assume that the defaults are thought-out, and
don't want to mess with them until I know Icicles better.

>> > Sorry for your trouble.  Please spend a few minutes with
>> > `Key Bindings' in the doc, and I think you might feel better.
>> 
>> It's not you who should be sorry.  (Though I miss an Info manual,
>> frankly speaking.  They are so good.  It's not that they are old and
>> bad and browsers are new and good.  It's that browsers are not yet at
>> this technological level as the Info reader. ;-))
>
> FWIW, I agree.  Info can be improved, of course, and there is
> talk now in emacs-devel@gnu.org of trying to do so (make it more
> usable in connection with proportional fonts, make it usable by
> typical web browsers, etc.).  If you can, and you would like to, help
> with that incipient effort, everyone would appreciate it.

See below.

> [Normally, I would just point you to the email thread about this
> for emacs-devel@gnu.org.  Unfortunately, this discussion has been
> going on since 2014-12-05, and has ranged far afield.  The original
> thread has branched a few times, and even when it has not branched
> it has wandered all around Robinson's barn.  Anyway, if you are
> interested, this is the starting point of the discussion:
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-12/msg00347.html
> And this is the latest message, as of today:
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-01/msg00025.html]

I've read much of this thread.  It was fascinating, for some values of
"fascinating".

> But the thing that is most important for the Emacs docs (and for
> any doc) is the *content* - complete & correct (but also readable,
> of course).  There too, there is always room for improvement.

Yes, and see below, too.

> Fortunately, throughout its long history Emacs has had the benefit
> of a few people who took doc seriously.  Starting with Emacs (the
> "self-documenting editor") itself.  (Is Emacs a person?)  And RMS.
> And Eli Zaretskii.

Yes.  I consider this a huge advantage of Emacs.  (I've read most of the
Emacs manual, though it was 15 years ago or so, the "Elisp Intro", and
some parts of Elisp manual.)

> Young blood is sorely needed for this too - not because the old
> farts are wrong or out-of-date or doing a poor job, but because
> no one hangs in there forever.  (There is now a long list of
> outstanding doc bugs.)

Is it available somewhere online?

> To "get" Emacs is to understand the usefulness and power of a
> program that communicates with you about itself, that opens itself
> freely and completely.  It includes understanding the importance
> software freedom and of, yup, doc.
>
> It is no accident that Emacs was the *starting point* and remains
> at the core of the "free" approach to using and developing software.
> And it is no accident that RMS concentrated so much of his energy
> on its ability to talk to you about itself - its doc, in particular.

Those remarks are /very/ interesting.  I will share this with a few of
my friends and students.

Coming back to the "If you can, and you would like to, help with that
incipient effort, everyone would appreciate it" and "There too, there is
always room for improvement" parts, here are my thoughts.

I'd love to, especially with the docs.  (Also, possibly with coding,
though I'm only a hobbyist programmer.)  I like writing (and tinkering
with what I wrote).  (I don't want to boast too much, so I'l try to keep
the boasting part short: I have a blog updated weekly (currently mostly
about Emacs), I wrote two master's theses and one doctoral dissertation,
my first book (in English, on mathematics) is currently under peer
review, my second book (in Polish, on LaTeX, with a coauthor) is
currently being written, and I have plans to write a third one (again in
English).  So I guess that while I'm not G.K. Chesterton, still my
credentials as far as writing goes /might/ be above the median.)

I could even learn bzr, though now that Emacs is in git, it would be
much easier for me (especially with Magit).  I mean: this or that
versioning system isn't a big deal.

But - and this is a very big "but" - there is a huge barrier to entry,
in my case probably insurmountable.  The FSF copyright agreement.  Most
probably, I won't sign it /ever/, for various reasons.  One is that the
text of the agreement is not available online.  I strongly oppose such
anti-openness (and find it very strange, especially that FSF claims that
it is about openness), and may not sign it /just because of this/.
Another one is that I am not sure whether the agreement is even valid
under my jurisdiction.  (American and Polish - in general, European -
copyright laws are much different, though IANAL.)  Yet another one (much
less important) is that (assuming the ATM unlikely scenario that I leave
academia and start working in IT) I am not at all sure whether having
signed the FSF papers would not decrease my hiring chances.

Regards,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski
http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski
Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science
Adam Mickiewicz University



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

* RE: Icicles stealing keybindings
  2015-01-03 21:23       ` Marcin Borkowski
@ 2015-01-04  0:19         ` Drew Adams
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2015-01-04  0:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Marcin Borkowski, Help Gnu Emacs mailing list

> I'll try to sit down and find the right set of options for wget to
> download only the Icicles-related pages from the wiki (I guess I
> could also leverage the fact that Emacs Wiki runs on Oddmuse, which
> means I can easily get the list of all pages and filter by the string
> "Icicles").  Then, converting to epub/mobi is easy with calibri.

My advice is to not do anything with the wiki content until it is
brought back in working order.  Apparently there are some pages there
now that are not up-to-date - perhaps from an old cache (dunno).

Apparently this has meant also that some MELPA files that are
mirrored from the wiki have been thrown back a year or so in date.

In sum, wait for the wiki to be fixed, before accessing its pages in
any serious way, and perhaps before downloading stuff from MELPA
whose source is the wiki.  I'm told that it is perhaps a matter of
waiting only a few more days.

> > The `finder'-accessed doc of some of my libraries, such as Icicles
> > and Bookmark+, also provides for navigation using simple hyperlinks
> > provided by library `linkd.el', if you happen to have that
> > installed.
> 
> Wow.  That sounds really interesting.

`linkd.el' is very simple.  It does not do the things that, say,
Org mode does with hyperlinking.  But it is good enough for the use
I mentioned.

> So do I get it right that finder just formats the docstrings and/or
> comments?  Wow.  I'll look into it someday.

It uses only the `Commentary' portion of a file.  It does not use doc
strings or comments in general.

> > (There is now a long list of outstanding doc bugs.)
> 
> Is it available somewhere online?

http://debbugs.gnu.org/ provides access to all of the Emacs bugs
(well, all of those since a few years back, when the bug tracker
was used by Emacs Dev for the first time).  I can't help with
sorting or searching for only doc bugs, I'm afraid.  Perhaps
"doc" in the subject line will help.

> > To "get" Emacs is to understand the usefulness and power of a
> > program that communicates with you about itself, that opens itself
> > freely and completely.  It includes understanding the importance
> > software freedom and of, yup, doc.
> >
> > It is no accident that Emacs was the *starting point* and remains
> > at the core of the "free" approach to using and developing
> > software.  And it is no accident that RMS concentrated so much of
> > his energy on its ability to talk to you about itself - its doc, in
> > particular.
> 
> Those remarks are /very/ interesting.  I will share this with a few
> of my friends and students.

Keep in mind that those remarks are just one person's judgment/opinion.

> Coming back to the "If you can, and you would like to, help with
> that incipient effort, everyone would appreciate it" and "There too,
> there is always room for improvement" parts, here are my thoughts.
> 
> I'd love to, especially with the docs.  (Also, possibly with coding,
> though I'm only a hobbyist programmer.)  I like writing (and
> tinkering with what I wrote).  (I don't want to boast too much, so
> I'l try to keep the boasting part short: I have a blog updated weekly
> (currently mostly about Emacs), I wrote two master's theses and one
> doctoral dissertation, my first book (in English, on mathematics) is
> currently under peer review, my second book (in Polish, on LaTeX,
> with a coauthor) is currently being written, and I have plans to
> write a third one (again in English).  So I guess that while I'm not
> G.K. Chesterton, still my credentials as far as writing goes /might/
> be above the median.)

I don't think that any credentials or any special background are
needed, to help fix Emacs bugs or otherwise contribute to Emacs.
Look at a bug, send in a patch for it - that's about it, AFAIK.
People like Eli will help & guide you if need be.

> I could even learn bzr, though now that Emacs is in git, it would be
> much easier for me (especially with Magit).  I mean: this or that
> versioning system isn't a big deal.
> 
> But - and this is a very big "but" - there is a huge barrier to
> entry, in my case probably insurmountable.  The FSF copyright
> agreement.  Most probably, I won't sign it /ever/, for various
> reasons.  One is that the text of the agreement is not available
> online.  I strongly oppose such anti-openness (and find it very
> strange, especially that FSF claims that it is about openness),
> and may not sign it /just because of this/. Another one is that I
> am not sure whether the agreement is even valid under my jurisdiction.
> (American and Polish - in general, European - copyright laws are
> much different, though IANAL.)  Yet another one (much less
> important) is that (assuming the ATM unlikely scenario that I
> leave academia and start working in IT) I am not at all sure whether
> having signed the FSF papers would not decrease my hiring chances.

I can't speak to such concerns.  I know next to nothing about the
legal aspects.  The FSF has lawyers and others who can probably
help.  Whether they have people expert in both Polish and US law,
I don't know.  But they've been dealing with this question for a
long time now.

See section `Copyright Assignment' in file .../etc/CONTRIBUTE.

One of these discussion threads might also help a bit:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013-02/msg00102.html
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-03/msg01217.html
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2010-08/msg00223.html

Otherwise, you might try writing to emacs-devel@gnu.org or
assign@gnu.org or rms@gnu.org, expressing your concerns & questions.

Your help is surely welcome.  And you might not find the hurdles
as high as you think, wrt legal matters.  You are certainly not the
first person to ponder the question.  But the decision is an
individual one, of course.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2015-01-04  0:19 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 6+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2015-01-03  1:10 Icicles stealing keybindings Marcin Borkowski
2015-01-03  2:17 ` Drew Adams
2015-01-03  9:28   ` Marcin Borkowski
2015-01-03 18:34     ` Drew Adams
2015-01-03 21:23       ` Marcin Borkowski
2015-01-04  0:19         ` Drew Adams

Code repositories for project(s) associated with this external index

	https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git
	https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git

This is an external index of several public inboxes,
see mirroring instructions on how to clone and mirror
all data and code used by this external index.